Who carries a firearm on Scout Outings???

[packsaddle]

"You're just a smelly monkey."

Thank you Beavah. You made my day. Now I have this wonderful mental image of a pharmacist in a white coat throwing his own feces at a bear cub. Delightful.

[packsaddle]

Does the category, 'beasts', include arthropods? I'm going to spend the next week or so counting mosquito and chigger bites.

Pigs? Thanks, it's as if I needed another reason not to go to west Texas.

[OldGreyEagle]

Surprised no one has mentioned this, but I can think of one BSA outing where everyone, youth and adults would have firearms

 

A Venturing Crews Hunting Trip

 

This forum gets lots of opinions from lots of places. Urban, SUburban, rural and everywhere in between. From Alaska to Maine, from Tampa/St Pete to San Francisco and that is just what I can think of in the past 5 seconds.

 

I am pretty sure there are no words of text I can produce which will stop those who carry on outings, nor are there words that would compel me to start. And I am an NRA Pistol Instructor. And I type this next part thoughtfully.

 

For you guys who carry on outings, please be sure you know exactly what target you are discharging your firearm at. Talk about headlines, I wont even hazzard a guess if a scouter were to shoot a youth or innocent hiker. I know, you will say thats ridiculous, I would never do anything like that and I hope nothing like that happens. But just as BD said, I did not understand the number of people who carry guns on scouting events. People who do it for their jobs I understand. If you feel you must, then you must and be safe

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Now if I was going SOLO or in a group of 2 or three into the areas you guys describe...Mountain lions and wild pigs I would Carry. I would carry bear spray into grizzly country.......But in all honesty if you see a mountain lion running at you, you will never get the gun out of the holster.

 

I already backpack in black bear country it is really no big deal. Practice clean camp, hang your food, make sure everyone has sleep only clothing and no gear in tents period. Your good.

 

But for a Scout Outing, which is what we are talking about, I would never carry. My guys are loud enough hiking along that we rarely see any wildlife. We did see a raccoon one time that I suspect was rabid, he was staggering along on trail 50 yards a head of us. We just gave him a wide berth.

 

I can't find the statistics any more....But a couple of years ago while trying to calm my sons fear of bears I found a page put together by the canadian goverment that showed attacks based on size of the group.....1 was most frequent by a significant margin and it dropped off significantly to the point of a group of 4 it was never going to happen. Same is probably true for mountain lions, but I have never dealt with them. Although a hunter recently turned in pictures of one on his game camera near were we backpack.

 

Interesting read.....

 

http://www.adn.com/2012/03/08/2359636/gun-is-no-insurance-policy-in.html

 

For those who claim bear defense, that little 9mm isn't going to cut it this is a good read. I want to know how you conceal a 44 mag with a 6" barrel where you could get to it in an emergent situation.

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

 

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm

 

 

Like Beavah, I am amazed at the excuses used to carry a firearm on a scout outing.

 

Maybe we need to add a course in self esteem and confidence to the BSA leader training list

[Basementdweller]

For the fellow who takes his dog for protection......One of the links list Dogs increasing the risk of attack by Bears and Mountain Lions as they are seen as prey.....

 

Several attacks on humans were because the humans tried to save their Dogs.

 

 

Just sayin.

[qwazse]

Thanks for the anecdotes Jp. I have relatives who hunt hog in FL, so I get what you're saying.

Were you with a pack/troop/crew on any of those outings?

The skunk kills, was that as part of camp staff, or did the ranger ask every SM to shoot first, ask questions later.

 

Obviously, there's a distinction between high adventure and outings suitable for 11 year olds. Salmon fishing in Alaska, sombody better have your back with a high powered rifle. Heck even the occasional Seabase captain keeps a pistol (in case of pirates). I'll check with a troop who went hiking in Glacier if any in their party carried, but I don't think they did.

 

In general, I can envision numerous situations with scouts where a carried weapon would cause more problems than it solves.

 

Most importantly, if you carry, do you bring along a gun lock for when you don't have it on you?

[nldscout]

Basement,

 

I don't need an excuse to carry, I carry 24 hrs a day 365 days a year. My firearms are with me more than my wife. I carry because its my choice, because I am authorized to, and because I can think of no good reason not to.

 

qwazse

 

 

Why would I need or want a gun lock? If its locked it won't do you any good when you need it.

[Beavah]

Salmon fishing in Alaska, sombody better have your back with a high powered rifle. Heck even the occasional Seabase captain keeps a pistol (in case of pirates).

 

Oh fer cryin' out loud!

 

Seabase ain't operatin' anywhere near pirate waters, and a pistol in a pirate raid is like bringin' a swiss army knife to a gun fight. It's just goin' to get yeh killed.

 

People who are that stupid shouldn't be allowed to carry.

 

For da record, yeh definitely do not need a high powered rifle to go salmon fishing in Alaska (unless you're usin' da rifle to shoot fish, which might be sorta fun in a redneck holiday sort of way )

 

Nor does anyone have any need to pack heat hikin' da trails in Glacier NP.

 

Sheesh.

 

Why would I need or want a gun lock? If its locked it won't do you any good when you need it.

 

Because if yeh have it around a bunch of teenage boys, it's an attractive nuisance. When campin' yeh do go to sleep, eh? And there's lots of other times where yeh might need to set your firearm aside for a bit while yeh worked on somethin' and it might be unattended.

 

Better would just be to follow G2SS and leave it at home unless there's a very good reason not to. A reason that amounts to a bit more than "because I can." (This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

So, it may come down to this

 

A regular poster was fond of saying that as we all are fellow volunteers in the great organization of the BSA we should respect each other's knowledge of the program they offer and the wishes of their Chartering Organization .

 

As such its been interesting to say the least to learn about the number of people who have firearms on activities, but I think it comes to respecting your fellow volunteer and trusting they will behave in the best possible manner regarding the program and safey of the youth they serve

 

In the words of Tiny Tim, God Bless us all, everyone (carriers and noncarriers alike)

[artjrk]

I can think of only one time in 13 years of scouting that having a firearm might have been helpful and it wasn't even in our troop. A rabid skunk had entered a scouts tent during the night acting crazy as a rabid skunk would do. The scouts cut their way out of the tent as quickly as possible but were still bitten. The skunk did leave the camp but then returned. At that point the camp ranger and leaders were able to kill the skunk with shovels. So yes a better weapon would have helped but in the night with scouts moving about and the skunk acting erratic, it may have been to hard to get a good shot anyway.

 

Personally, I can not imagine bring a personal weapon to any scout outing. I hope no other leaders bring one either. My neighbor (fellow Scout parent) who is a Federal Agent does have weapons in his trunk on outings since he is on call, but never on his person. I think that is appropriate.

[FScouter]

Wow. If there was any doubt before, the posits posted in these various gun topics make it crystal clear. One would think the trails and camps and remote areas are controlled by roving bands of thugs preying on innocent citizens. One cannot venture to take a walk down the street or to the local shopping mall or corner grocery without the risk of death. Our homes, our property, our kids and womenfolk are being pillaged and raped on a daily basis.

 

Therefore it is incumbent for the citizenry of our country to be armed against these attacks.

 

Looking for (but not finding) the reports that would substantiate all this:

Last week my neighbor was attacked and dragged off by a mountain lion, the week before bears mauled an elderly couple taking a walk, and this summer we had three Scouts that were attacked by rabid skunks. There was yet another incident last week where a wacko began shooting up cars as they drove by, and another wacko that grabbed on old lady at the mall and shot her to death. It was the fourth killing this month at the same mall.

 

Where are all those stories?? You would think this stuff would be happening on a daily basis right in our neighborhoods and in our Scout troops and our workplaces every day. Instead all we hear is what-if scenarios, anecdotes about somebody saw a mountain lion track in the mud, and somebody else was nervous a few years back because he didnt have a gun. Never mind that nothing actually happened, but he was really nervous!

 

For this we need multiple guns in the house, and automatic/semi-automatic capabilities, and 50 shot magazines, and need to holster a gun 24 hours a day where ever we go?

 

Im convinced more than ever that our society is truly gun crazy.

[skeptic]

It is all because those of us from earlier days were allowed to play cowboys and indians, have cap guns, and watch those horribly violent B movies with Tom Mix and Hoppy. So some pass it on to their children and grandchildren who add the influence of video games.

[desertrat77]

"One would think the trails and camps and remote areas are controlled by roving bands of thugs preying on innocent citizens"

 

As a matter of fact, some remote places are controlled by thugs. Not all places. But some, definitely, yes.

 

Not conjecture. Personal experience.

 

 

 

 

[JoeBob]

I'm having fun watching the undercurrents of this discussion.

 

 

There are arguments based on logic, experience, and realism:

 

"people with CCW permits have some of the lowest crime rates of any demographic. That CCW holders frequently save lives."

 

"How long is it going to take for a Park Ranger to come to your aid when your boys are threatened"

 

"Just because I am Scouting doesn't mean the world suddenly became less dangerous."

 

"I laughed for years when G2sS prohibited anything resembling a firearm while the top prize for selling popcorn was a marshmallow shooter."

 

"I worked at a Scout Camp where we were confronted by a group of vandals with knives, and other improvised weapons."

****

 

And there are arguments based on emotion:

 

"I fear people I meet who DO pack heat"

 

"I am just alarmed at the number of adult men that can not go on a scout outing unarmed."

 

"I had no idea how insecure my fellow scouters are. I am just mystified at the lack of confidence,fear and hiding behind the "Being Prepared" to carry a gun."

 

"yeh just don't have enough experience so your imagination is runnin' wild, or it might be a more serious mental health condition"

 

"People who are that stupid shouldn't be allowed to carry."

 

"Maybe we need to add a course in self esteem and confidence to the BSA leader training list"

 

 

Whichever type of argument you are making, it is FUN to watch it lather up!!

 

 

BTW: Merry Christmas, y'all!

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I've been backpacking in Glacier, Yellowstone, the Cascades, GSMNP, other parts of the Rockies, and yes, some parts of Alaska for over 40 years. Most of it solo. I've never carried a firearm. I've carried stuff for first aid or other emergencies. I've carried extra food. And a few times I've carried a cell phone (I really hate cell phones), but mostly because my wife felt the need to nag me from long distance.

I've bushwhacked off trail in the backcountry in grizzly territory and over all these decades, I've never, ever, had a violent encounter with anything other than some blood-sucking arthropods. Yes, I was charged by a bear in GSMNP once. I smacked the hell out of it with my staff and that was that. Yes, I've seen bears other places and a few moose. But they've always yielded either to my forewarned presence (read: noise) or else to the bear spray.

 

I did stumble onto a recent kill once and luckily the grizzly who had been guarding that spot had finished up and was gone by the time I came through. Its wallow was still warm (comfy, actually, I even gave it a try out). By the time I realized what I had intruded into, even if I had a gun it would have been too late if that animal had still been there guarding the kill.

 

The only time I've ever been harmed by a mammal was when mice got into my oatmeal once or twice. It tasted 'funny' after that, almost as if they'd peed in it (they might've).

 

But I suppose I've led a charmed life. And if one of those crazed raccoons or a ferocious pig ever comes at me I guess it will be time for me to buy the ranch because these things to me are irrational fears.

 

Like I said before, if I meet another person on the trail I consider them 'friend'...unless I see it's some moron packing heat. Then THAT makes me nervous. I don't know them from Adam's dog and they have something that gives them the ability to reach me from great distance and there's almost no way I can dodge the projectile. Worse, they obviously think I'M a potential threat or else they wouldn't be packing in the first place. They are to me a threat, the only likely threat I'm likely to find in the woods other than, like said, blood-sucking arthropods (or incontinent mice).

 

But for scouters to carry these weapons on troop outings, is something I cannot respect at all - and I hope BSA doesn't either.