vumbi Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Ian, I too am astonished as I read this thread. I had no idea that scouting events were so awash with hidden firearms and none of that makes me feel the least bit safer for it...especially considering some of the personalities I have observed in leaders who may or may not be 'packing' at any particular time. I do not engage in this kind of security fantasy/theater. The worst threat we've ever encountered on an outing is the occasional raccoon trying to raid our garbage, a patch of unnoticed poison ivy, and those truly ever-present biting insects...none of which even hints at the need for the kind of fire power I see discussed here. Ian, the only explanation I can think of is that just like any other fad, there seems to be a tendency to try to join the 'herd' when a fad gets started. In this case it is some kind of fascination with having the ability to kill someone. I just don't get it, especially for scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vumbi Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Question to anyone who is a LEO: I accept that you have your legal requirements and I appreciate that you are both well-trained and that you follow those requirements carefully. But...if you are on a troop outing, how do you feel about those other adults who are not LEOs and are carrying concealed? Do you think this is a good thing? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krampus Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 * But that's only because I'm looking at it from this end, in a country where handguns are illegal, the police don't routinely carry, and the only bears are in zoos. Definitely not trying to start an argument! Ian This is why we carry in the back country. (some what grusome) http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000riiDdkWCu0w/s/650/520/bear-attack.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I'm not in the "back country" but I have had black bear right out my back door. We have had scout killed by a black bear a few counties over. Black bears have been shot within the city limits of our town. I have encountered black bears while hunting small game. I have encountered packs of feral dogs. I have been shot at by hunters and encountered armed trespassers on my property. Yes, I feel the least protected when I'm in gun-free zones and while trying to keep scouts safe. By the way, I would not say the place I live is anything but urban/suburban in nature. A year ago I did finally move 6 miles out of town to a rural setting.\ Forgot to add, DNR knows of 3 black bear dens in our county (one within 1/4 mile of a public school and 2 1/2 miles from my house) and have acknowledged cougar in the area as well. Wolves have been spotted on occasion, but they have never bothered anyone to my knowledge. Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwilkins Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I'm thinking that in a large shopping mall with an active shooter, if I have to draw my gun, it is comforting to note there may be a handful of other armed conceal carry "gun-nuts" out there to help and I don't have to worry about the unarmed bobbies coming to my rescue getting there on time. We live in two different worlds. Aaah, you see, that example would be a very very unlikely occurrence, so the follow on logic is based on a false premise. I live close enough to London to see their local news, and I can see that maybe not everything is reported, but generally there's some gang violence, sadly teenage males seem to stab each other on a not infrequent basis, but the last jewellery heist I saw reported it was machete's and the sledge hammers and baseball bats used to get into the cabinets. And still some bystander tried to pull one of them off his moped as he rode away (he backed off when the perp started waving a machete about, fair enough). Lies, damn lies, and statistics... in the whole of the UK, the police shot and killed three people last year, one in 2014. Firearm related death rate by homicide is 0.06 per 100,000 people. In the USA it's 3.55. If it's any consolation, Honduras is 66.64. So I think it's ok unarmed bobbies coming to the rescue in the shopping centre, as the perp would also be unarmed. Yes, definitely different worlds. To vaguely scout relate it, we had some Portuguese come over the other year, and they loved air rifle shooting (.177 I think) as they can't do it in Portugal...but they've all done shotgun shooting, as that's the more "normal" over there. We could also do shotgun shooting, but it's expensive. I have been to a local rifle club and shot some of the members shotguns, and their range of historic weapons, mostly rifles, but also a revolver, which was only legal as it was black powder, so you had to put a cap in, load a measure of black powder, add a ball bearing, and cap it off with grease... x 6. Hardly automatic. Insanely loud and an impressive cloud of smoke though. Good fun! Ian This is why we carry in the back country. (some what grusome) http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000riiDdkWCu0w/s/650/520/bear-attack.jpg Somewhat!?! Ewwwww! Ian Edited January 21, 2016 by ianwilkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Don't think for a moment we don't have our knife wielding, machete swinging, baseball bat armed hoodlums here too. I guess in America we prefer to show up to a knife fight with a gun. I sure hope if you're unarmed Bobbies showing up at the mall never encounter a crazy with an illegal gun. Their job is heroic enough without being ill equipped to handle any and all possibilities. We had a local law enforcement officer come to our meeting to talk with the boys about drug abuse, etc. for their advancement and the boys got off on a tangent. They asked the officer if he were attached what he would do. He said he would pull his baton to defend himself. Then the boys asked, what if the guy had a knife, to which the officer said, he'd pull his gun. Then the boys asked, what if the guy had a gun, to which the officer said, "I'd shoot first." I kinda think that might be how Americans are hard wired. Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krampus Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I'd like to see an unarmed "Bobby" in parts of Brooklyn, Harlem or DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Ian mentioned that the police in all of England shot and killed only 3 criminals. So that must mean that a few of them have guns. Here's an interesting statistic, how many would be alive today had they been armed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The (boys) asked the officer if he were attached what he would do. He said he would pull his baton to defend himself. . That's an interesting take on being married...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 OMG! Thanks for the lesson in proof-reading. My dyslexia has always been a bit of a pain, but the unfortunate part of it all is you have a sense of humor like I do! Well played! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 From across the pond, I've read this thread with bemusement and incredulity*, and you're all making the USA sound very dangerous! I'm not judging, if you consider carrying a gun necessary, you're the best judge of that not me. * But that's only because I'm looking at it from this end, in a country where handguns are illegal, the police don't routinely carry, and the only bears are in zoos. Definitely not trying to start an argument! Ian It's bigger than just gun rights though isn't it. The part of our constitution that guarantees gun rights also guarantees freedom of speech, press, assembly, protection from self-incrimination, protection from unreasonable and warrentless search and seizure, due process, speedy trials, protection from cruel and unusual punishment, et. al. granting those rights to the people in order to limit a federal government and preventing it from becoming oppressive. In the past two decades the US government, run by both major political parties, have given us bipartisan freedom crushing regulation and legislation in the name of keeping us safe, while we've witnessed the power of government to spy on journalists, intimidate out of favor political groups, and gather mass surveillance on the populace, instead of toeing the line of constitutional liberty. The reality is it's been going on for generations but it seems to be hitting more of a critical mass these days. The debate of gun-rights is a battle in the on-going war of individual liberty against a centralized government power monopoly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krampus Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I blame the English. Had they not oppressed us for all those decades back in the 18th Century, we would not feel the need to carry weapons. Clearly it's their fault. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 With every passing day and every lost Constitutional Right disappearing, I am more certain that Joseph McCarthy had it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) This is not a new issue, ian. You can't start an argument that has been going on since before the United States existed. .Cesare Beccaria wrote about it in 1764, and Thomas Jefferson cited Beccaria's argument. Google old Cesare and see what he said on the topic. (Essentially, when weapons are outlawed, only outlaws will have weapons.) The most recent U.S. homicide rate, as noted by brother ian, is 3.55/100,000. That excludes suicides. The national homicide rate fell from 9.8 in 1991 to the recent 3.5. (Facts not discussed by the professionally-protected leaders of the disarmament movement.) During the period since the peak rate, several things have changed that are cited in discussing the precipitous fall: older population less lead poisoning fewer unwanted births many, many more firearms in civilian hands (U.S. citizens own over 250,000,000 firearms.) (In terms of permits to carry a concealed handgun alone, the number climbed from 4.6 million in 2007 to 12.8 million in 2015. (Source: Crime Prevention Research Center). My most dangerous experiences in Scouting involved near lightning strikes (x2) and having my troop pelted with baseball-sized pieces of railroad ballast by 10-12 teenage hoods from a railroad overpass in a public park in the middle of a city. (While not without risk, the wilderness seems safer than "civilization.") As for law enforcement and civilian armed self-defense, opinions differ in this democracy. Some law enforcement officials favor civilians being armed and some oppose that situation. The Chief of Police of Detroit strongly encourages civilian ownership of firearms, as does the Sheriff of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin. They support the observation that when seconds count, police are minutes away. I was told by a CPD Lieutenant that average response to a house burglar alarm call in Cleveland, Ohio is 45 minutes. Every rank-and-file cop I have ever talked to about this issue feels proper gun control only comes from systematic shooting practice. But, then, we have the last word already pronounced. It's not up to the police or the government. Like it or not, we have a right to protect ourselves. "We hold these truths to be self-evident . . . ." Anyone note that two armed civilians are credited with delaying the murderers at the university attack in Pakistan, one of them a teacher? CNN missed that event, but even the Washington Post gave it coverage. Edited January 21, 2016 by TAHAWK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 From across the pond, I've read this thread with bemusement and incredulity*, and you're all making the USA sound very dangerous! I'm not judging, if you consider carrying a gun necessary, you're the best judge of that not me. * But that's only because I'm looking at it from this end, in a country where handguns are illegal, the police don't routinely carry, and the only bears are in zoos. Definitely not trying to start an argument! Ian The world is more dangerous. "...Camp Strake (outside Houston, Texas) closed down in December 2014 after serving the Boy Scouts of America for 70 years. According to the representatives at the luncheon, the sale of the land was due to urban development and gang activity becoming a concern for its existence." http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/humble/news/construction-set-to-begin-soon-on-new-camp-strake/article_35a890b7-d4c6-5c59-9993-2a0ff5a2b50b.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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