Guide to Safe Scouting Question

[dsteele]

I'm very proud to know you (in an online way) Dave, and welcome. The BSA has an excellent relationship with the military and I hope it continues. In fact, I'm working with a District Executive to help the JROTC form a Venture Crew. The JROTC officers and Sgt. Major are excited about the partnership and so are we.

 

I don't think you'll find a BSA volunteer who is anti-warrior or anti-police. Some may be anti-war, but I am not.

 

I think we can agree that, no matter how you cut it, war is not play. Hence the BSA does not endorse "playing" shooting at people with paint or laser or the BB guns my friends and I used to shoot at each other in High School (we didn't learn that in Scouts )

 

As to the other military comparisons you made in your post, you are correct, they do resemble the military. I think this points to the pride the BSA has in the United States military and those who are part of it. I think the respect is returned and that being a Boy Scout is excellent preparation for soldiers, sailors, Marines, and any other place in the world that requires men of integrity.

 

When it comes time for a former Scout to learn to shoot at people, I want him to learn it from someone who has been trained in what it means to do so -- not from a game he played with his buddies when he was 11.

 

I am not a veteran or a member of any branch of serivice (I had a Congressional Nomination to West Point, but didn't get in because of childhood epilepsy) and my only memories of shooting someone were during BB gun fights that were a lot of fun, but not safe from a safety or philosophical position. BB gun fights and laser tag and paintball won't get a kid a nomination to a military academy, being an Eagle Scout or even a former Scout goes a lot farther because of the values built in Scouting vs. competency in a game.

 

DS

[scoutingagain]

From a philosophical stand point I can see the point of not supporting the idea of pointing "weapons" at other people and "killing" them as part of a game.

 

However, of the types of games I've played like this, Paintball, Laser Tag and Water pistolsl/Squirtguns, only Paintball has the feature of "killing" your an opponent so he/she is out of the game. The laser tag games I've been associated with as a part of some of my son's friend's birthday parties, no one is "killed". You collect points for your team for every successful "hit" on target. The targets happen to be on opposing players. In that sense it is more like using waterpistols, except no one gets wet.

 

To me the BSA prohibition on the Laser Tag thing is a bit over the top. But if it's one of the "rules" we won't be doing it as a scout activity.

 

SA

[Proud Eagle]

I think that the rule against laser tag is not appropriate for the G2SS. I can think of no real danger within laser tag that is not present during many other popular games. (capture the flag, water gun fights, hide and seek) In fact, laser tag is safer than many games of capture the flag I have seen. In laser tag no one even touches anyone else. In capture the flag you can end up with a pretty rough contact sport if someone forgets the rules. The only safety concern I can think of with laser tag would be eye safety. That is very easily addressed through the rules of the game. (Also, I seem to remember that the lasers used are not powerful enough to cause permanent eye damage. It would be about like looking at a bright flashlight.)

 

As to it being a bad activity to engage in because of shooting peaple, I really want to know who is going to confuse laser tag with actually shooting people. The "weapons" used are nothing alike. Laser tag equipment is more like something from ghost busters or star trek (It is not military type MILES gear.) Perhaps the best way to address this would be to leave the decision up to the unit and then require all participants have parental persmission to engage in laser tag. That way units that found it to be a taboo activity could not do it, and those that felt it was appropriate could do it with parental consent.

 

The same arguments also apply to paint ball. A set of sensible safety rules for paintball would make it just about as safe as anyting else. Set key safety guidelines (no frozen paint balls, limmit velocity, require safety masks, etc), leave the decision to the unit, and require parental consent. Paint ball can cause some minor bruising even if done correctly. Perhaps classifying paint ball as a high adventure activity would make it a bit easier to deal with.

 

Here is a what if senario-

Most laser tag facilities require no parental consent, waiver forms, or anything like that. So lets say BSA Troop X is on a trip. They stop at a mall to let the Scouts eat lunch and spend a few minutes in the AC. Like all good troops they are traveling in uniform. A couple of the Scouts (maybe an entire patrol) notices a laser tag facility on the mall map and decides to spend part of their time engaged in laser tag instead of mall walking.

In this scenario who is at fault for the G2SS for being violated? Certainly not the Scouts, because they have probably never heard of it. Also, the unit leader can't really be expected to know the contents of a mall before stopping in for lunch during a trip. (Not to mention most malls contain far more objectionable things than laser tag.) Should a troop stopping at a location that could possibly contain the dreaded laser tag be forced to maintain constant direct supervision of all scouts for fear of them engaging in laser tag?

 

I agree that no weapon should be pointed at others during Scouting functions for anything other than very specific training purposes (such as law enforcement conducted training). However, laser tag "guns" are certainly not true weapons. They are not desinged to cause damage or injury to any one or any thing. Paint ball guns could perhaps be considered a weapon, but even here they are certainly not a firearm or a deadly weapon. Nor are they designed to inflict injury. This seems to be a case of the G2SS either using overly broad definitons, being far too cautious, or being politically correct instead of safety oriented. If I was leading a youth group of any form on a paint ball or laser tag outing, I would want a careful safety briefing included. I would also want to explain the difference between the "weapons" used in tose activities and real weapons, and that real weapons should never be pointed at other people.

 

Maybe I just have too much common sense for my own good, because all of that just seems like plain ordinary common sense.

 

p.s.- I have participated in both laser tag and paint ball. The laser tag I did with friends on numerous occasions (until they raised prices). The paint ball I have done with my ROTC battalion during FTXs. I can say that both activities are very fun and could be great activities for teambuilding or just enhancing brotherhood and spirit amongst a group. I personally know of no one who was injured during any of these activities.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

[dsteele]

I don't make the rules, I just sign tour permits. Laser tag and paint ball are restricted activities. I have attempted to explain what I believe is the rationale of the committee that does make the rules.

 

I happen to think laser tag is cool. I also happen to think that paintball would be fun to try some day. However, as long as they're on the list of unauthorized and restricted activities, I can not endorse them as unit activities under the auspicices of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

You may all continue your debate . . .

 

DS

[packsaddle]

Davej775, Thanks a WHOLE lot! All I can think of now is the StayPufft Marshmallow Man (did I spell that correctly?). You know, if we are ever attacked by giant marshmallows we're going to regret this policy and be in world of hurt. Oops, we're even not going to 'Be Prepared'.

Come to think of it, how do they make marshmallows anyway? And why do they taste better burned? In between graham crackers with Hershey bars? Who was Graham anyway and why did they name a cracker after him (her)? And they're not really crackers are they, but more of a cookie? And cookies are called biscuits in the UK, why? ....and spanners and dust bins? Eamonn, help me!

Sorry folks, I do this around popcorn time each year.

[Proud Eagle]

dsteele,

 

I understand your position. You do not have a choice about approving paint ball or laser tag. (Though I wouldn't be suprised if you have unkowingly approved a permit for an activity that included that as an unlisted activity.) I also don't want scouting to become a place where someone can just play with a gun when they feel like it. There are clear differences between recreational activities using devices intended for those activities and unsafe "recreationa" activities using firearms or other weapons. I don't want Scouts to start packing shotguns around camp and shooting the birds out of the trees. I also don't want the BSA putting what appear to be politically motivated rules in a safety guide. If BSA wants to ban those activities based on ideology they can, but it shouldn't be disguised as a safety rule. Besides, if someone is going to sue the BSA next time a former Scout shoots someone, they will probably do it weather he played laser tag or just learned to shoot a quarter size group at 50ft.

[chembard]

This last weekend I was playing paintball as every weekend before and some boyscouts were there on a birthday party. They mentioned that paintball was not allowed in scouts and that it had to be an outside activity. I am an ex eagle scout ex military and thought that it seemed another wonderful example of how politically incorrect society turns organizations into the puppets of lawyers. I went outside after getting aired up and some 14-15 year olds were shooting sling shots with paintballs in them at eachother with no masks. After a butt chewing and explaining how short their visits could be, I stood corrected. Paintballs real danger we all would agree is the loss of an eye. This danger is almost zero as long as a mask is worn and barrel plugs are used in the hot areas. Scout leaders however cannot demand the respect of these boys and so are only half listened to. Therefore it would be impossible to force these easily understandable and easier to comply with conditions on boys ready to play "war". No scout leader would want to explain the loss of an eye to a parent. God knows I wouldnt. I will play paintball with my little girl however because I know without a shadow of a doubt she will do what I tell her. Its that trust that allows us experienced players to pass safety off to those beginning. So if your child is interrested in paintball, take them. However I would not recommend sending them with anybody else as it does require some presence of mind in the danger inherent in the game. As far as the laser tag...well...lawyers have to get paid too.

Robert

[Proud Eagle]

chembard,

 

I agree completely that paintball is a potential danger to the eyes if people do not take proper precautions. However, you also pointed out a correctly worn mask in good repair virtually eliminates that risk.

 

I do not agree with the overall validity of your argument. We trust Scouts to be responsible enough and listen well enough to use REAL FIREARMS that can kill people if mishandled. So why should we not trust, after proper safety instruction, Scouts to use paintball markers?

 

Oh, and don't forget, "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle."

 

 

[Eamonn]

I have never tried and admit to knowing next to nothing about Paintball or Laser Tag.

I also don't know why you changed Biscuits into cookies or Dustman into Garbagemen.

Coming from a place where any sort of a gun was looked upon with a certain amount of unease. I am not in my comfort zone with any sort of gun.

Yes I am aware of how much our Cub Scouts enjoy shooting BB guns. And yes I know all or at least at one time I did know the rules and when I running day camps this was part of the program.

While I am not sure but I would think that many insurance companies would find problems with paintball. I don't know enough about Laser Tag to have an opinion.

Could it be that the guys in the insurance companies have been watching the movie Christmas Story and are worried that someone will "Shoot your eye out"

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"Coming from a place where any sort of a gun was looked upon with a certain amount of unease"

 

Except by the gentry who can afford to "hunt."

[Bob White]

Tis is really not a safety based rule. If it were then rifle, shotgun, archery, Rock Climbimg and a myriad of other activities would have been banned long before laser-tag.

 

Bottom line is that scouting is an edicational system designed to teach values. Learning to point a weapon at another person is not one of the values we are trying to teach.

 

Some have brought up squirt gun fights as a comparison. I was taught over twenty years ago in scouting that water fights are fine but squirt guns are not appropriate in a scouting event. So you cannot blame todays "PC" society.

 

Here is an alternative...We have always used squeeze bottles (empty dish soap bottles mostly) they spray a lot further and dispense more water. Plus, they are cheap, readily available and paractically indestructable. Another great thing to use are large sponges. But we have never done "gun fights" and no scout or parent has ever complained that it wasn't fun or wasn't appropriate.

 

Again this is not about saety it is about values. I would agrre that there are times when having to shoot someone is required (in the military or in law enforcement for instance), but those situations have their own specific training and do not require that they be learned or used by scout aged boys.

 

I like paint ball and laser tag too. But that does not mean that they further the goals of scouting.

 

Bob White

[Davej775]

If teamwork, trust, sportsmanship, friendlyness, cheerfulness, bravery, and loyality to the team are elements to the game; and the Scout exercizes these qualities, then the spitit of Scouting has been reinforced. The positive qualities of the Scouting movement are there for the Scout to draw on in any situation if we as leaders have done our job. Situations are dynamic, ever changing; values are not. If we're at all reverent, we look for the good in anything. The opportunity to exercize the Scout Law is everywhere, and we should recognize that and live it, embracing the law everyday.

Scouting is about overcoming challenges. Taking Scouts to paintball and trusting them to keep that mask on is the challenge here. I see no difference squrting a soap container and a squirt gun. If we employ micmic actions in ecery sport, what can we assume from baseball with that violent activity with that bat on that poor unsuspecting ball? Tagging a man out? That giant marshmellow is coming! Yikes!! Dave J running for cover!

[Proud Eagle]

did anyone else get a bit confused by that last bit in Dave J's post?

 

 

Bob White:

 

I would disagree that pointing a gun at people, or not pointing one at people is a "value" unto itself. I would suggest it is an expression of a value. More like a political position rather than a moral value.

 

I would not, under any circumstance, point a firearm at another person unless it was to protect life, liberty, or property, or to train for the defense of the same.

 

On the other hand, I have no objection to playing paint ball just for the fun of it. However, I think paintball has a value beyond fun. I think it does reinforce all of those things listed by Dave J. Certainly paintball could be used to teach someone small unit tactics, but it could also be used to teach teamwork, cooperation, problem solving, athleticism, and many other positive lessons. Ask yourself this- what is the objective of these water fights you mention? Then think if those same objectives could be met through the safe use of paintball or laser-tag (other than cooling off).

 

I know some parents would probably object to paintball. It is for that reason that I suggest the rules be revised to require parental consent. I also imagine we can all agree that putting a non-safety related rule in the GTSS is not a good thing. Doing so sets a precedent that could be used to ban many other things under the false guise of safety. At the very least this rule should be moved to some other list of banned activities.

 

I also think that the fact that so many people that agree on the type of values we should be teaching kids (those of Scouting), could disagree about the worth of a couple of activities, shows that these activities do not directly conflict with the values of Scouting. They could conflict with other values that are held by Scouts and Scouters, but I do not think these activities conflict with the values of Scouting. If they do, I have not seen the manner in which they do. Perhaps someone could explain it in a way that would make sense to me.

 

I am sorry if people think I am just arguing this to be annoying, or so I can go play paintball with my troop. I just think this is one of those stupid rules, made for no good reason, by a group of people that really didn't fully consider the issue.

 

I also know we will be lucky if they don't ban all similar activities such as water fights, just to keep from being non-PC. Why the BSA chose to take the PC route on this issue, I don't know, but it certainly seems like that is the most logical reason for going this way (either that, or they think we are all too stupid to know the difference between a weapon and a toy).(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

[Eamonn]

While I have never thought of myself as being PC.

I do tend to agree that toy guns even if they only fire water are not such a good idea.

I also think that the rockets made to look like weapons of mass destruction that are advertised in Boys Life send the wrong message.

We used to have water fights using washing up liquid bottles. Most of them were for Fairy washing up liquid.

More then once on a hot day at summer camp we would hear the Scouts ask if they could get the Fairies out.

As I say I never thought that I was p.c.

Oh well.

Eamonn

[FScouter]

There is nothing "politcal" in the decision of BSA to not allow paintball or laser tag as Scout activities. And that decision doesn't have anything to do with safety either. "Play killing" of other human beings does not support any Scouting value, and that is the reason BSA does not allow it.