Guide to Safe Scouting Question

[Bob White]

Avast matey,

I appreciate that you look at it as only a guide however the BSA does not. Only the text in regular type is a guide. All text in bold face type are BSA policies and rules and must be followed in order to avoid loss of membership and possible legal action.

 

It says...

BSA Rules and Policies

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

 

Them's the rules of the ship swabby. Don't get yer self keelhauled for thinkin they be somethin differnt.

 

Happy Talk like a Pirate Day!

Cpt. Bob "Flotsam" White

[evmori]

Bob makes a good point. But he doesn't answer questions. I guess he thinks they will just go away. NOT!!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Aargh! Edward, should we slap 'im in irons and make 'im walk the plank? Or just admire his beautiful accent? Aargh!

[red feather]

Aye, Aye Capn (knuckle to forehead), will that be a simple floggin or kissin the Iron Maiden?

 

Request allowance to check with the ships Doctor and get my spectacles looked at. Bold type is sometimes to hard to see.

 

I do try to avoid the keelhaulin in the waters we travel in these days. There be shark in the water.

 

With your premission Capn I'll be on my way to the top of the main mast to begin my punishment.

 

fair winds and clear seas..

 

yis

[RobK]

You can learn a lot about laser tag guns here:

 

 

They are essentially big TV remotes. They use the same technology -- IR. And you can usually pick up the output with night vision scopes.

 

I think the prohibition against paint ball and laser tag is very lame. BP would be disgusted.

[Hunt]

At the lasertag place my son has visited, they go to great pains to avoid any language suggesting weaponry--ie, they always refer to the "handset" and they don't talk about "shooting." See http://www.shadowlandadventures.com/equip_advent.htm. I note that the effective beams aren't really lasers, but are infrared. So one could quibble--but it seems pretty clear that BSA wants to ban this as a troop activity.

But I'm unclear exactly why BSA wants to ban this. Is it because of safety issues inherent in the activity itself? This makes sense for paintball, maybe, but lasertag is probably less dangerous than football, and certainly less dangerous than kayaking. Or is it a broader safety issue--ie, pointing any kind of weapon at others promotes unsafe behaviors? I don't really buy this, but it's arguable. Or is it that the powers that be just don't think that pointing weapons at each other is consistent with the values of Scouting? I can accept this too, but if this is the reason, it should be stated clearly and not couched in terms of safety.

[mk9750]

We had an incident while rapelling and climbing this weekend that resulted in a broken wrist to one of our Scouts. It seems the cause of the injury, according to those who know rapelling and climbing, is the guideline in G2SS and the climbing "Topping Out" literature that requires rapellers to use two ropes. I don't understand all of the physics involved, but as I do understand, the additional friction caused by two ropes going through a figure eight is too much for many smaller guys to overcome by their weight.

 

My point is not to debate the guideline. I don't know if it is valid or not. Our SM, who is the Council Climbing Director, is writing to National and the National Climbing Committee to object to the guideline. My point is though, that the materials are very clear that the guidelines are just that - Guidelines. However, all climbing instructors certified to lead climbing and rapelling events are required to follow the guidelines as a part of their certification. I found this somewhat interesting as it relates to discussions in these forums such as this thread. At least in this case, it doesn't matter whether a line in a piece of BSA lierature is a rule or a guideline - If you agree to undertake directing the event, you agree to enforcing the guideline, effectively making it an ironclad rule. I wonder how many other instances like this exist throughout Scouting?

 

Mark

[NJCubScouter]

Hunt says (and I have broken it up to insert numbers that I can refer to):

 

But I'm unclear exactly why BSA wants to ban this. [That is, laser tag]

1. Is it because of safety issues inherent in the activity itself? This makes sense for paintball, maybe, but lasertag is probably less dangerous than football, and certainly less dangerous than kayaking.

2. Or is it a broader safety issue--ie, pointing any kind of weapon at others promotes unsafe behaviors? I don't really buy this, but it's arguable.

3. Or is it that the powers that be just don't think that pointing weapons at each other is consistent with the values of Scouting? I can accept this too, but if this is the reason, it should be stated clearly and not couched in terms of safety.

 

It is probably not number 1, though the way it is worded in the policy (lumped in with activities that do involve firing a projectile of some sort) leaves this less than completely clear. As you say, though, the physical safety of the activity itself would not justify the ban. The most likely answer would be number 2, although some might (and have, in this forum) phrase it differently. Teaching boys to point weapons at other human beings and pull the trigger, even if nothing comes out, could desensitize some boys to the results of doing it for real. I personally think that this would happen only in extremely rare cases, and therefore I agree with you that it is "arguable," or as I would phrase it, it is a grey area. But within the context of the G2SS, it does make sense to ban it. The G2SS generally takes a "better safe than sorry" approach, and therefore bans or restricts most of the grey areas. I'm comfortable with that approach, even if it sometimes "gets in the way" of activities that are, most of the time, ok. It's not like people can't get together and do laser tag, outside the Scouting context, though I don't like the practice of some people of having an activity with only Scouting families in order to "get around" the G2SS.

 

As it happens, my son wants to have a laser tag party for his next birthday. He would invite friends from both Scouts and school, and a cousin or two, and therefore it would clearly be a non-Scouting activity both in name and in fact. I am confident that my son and the boys he will invite are capable of keeping laser tag and real gunplay separate in their minds, but that is MY call and the call of the other parents in deciding whether to let their sons attend. The BSA not make the call, which makes sense because the BSA is not being asked to sanction the activity or to have any responsibility if something goes wrong.

 

As for number 3, that might be a secondary reason, or looked at another way, number 2 does have a moral component. I think it is an issue of safety first, and values second, but the values and the safety aspect lead to the same conclusion anyway.

[Rooster7]

I don't want to engage anyone in this debate, but if I were the "BSA dictator", laser tag and paintball would be permitted. I see no real danger especially as compared to so many other activities (rafting, climbing, etc.). I don't have a moral issue with it either. I don't believe any of these kids are going to turn on their parents, teachers, or friends. I tried paintball with a bunch of Scouts a few years back when it was on a "not recommended list" of some kind. It was one of our best outings. The kids (and adults) had a blast. In fact, I would describe it as a bonding experience. They couldn't wait to do it again. Unfortunately, that was not to be...

 

I wonder, of all the troops that tried paintball, how would they rate the experience incredible, good, fair, bad, horrible? My bet is on incredible, especially if the boys were allowed to rate the activity.

 

[dsteele]

The BSA doesn't teach Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts to shoot human targets with anything. I once made the mistake of bringing up squirt gun fights to a professional in the Risk Management Division of the BSA and he said, "we might have to ban those, too."

 

Laser tag and paintball, unlike a squirtgun fight (usually) involve combat-like techniques. Teaching values is a BSA thing, teaching combat is not.

 

DS

[NeilLup]

I had the opportunity a couple of days ago to talk with a member of the National Health and Safety Committee who is one of the custodians of the G2SS. I asked about the ban on laser tag and other things.

 

He said that any activity which

 

intends to do harm to another human being

mimics doing harm to another human being

imitates or simulates doing harm to another human being

 

is forbidden.

 

They believe that either really doing, pretending to do or imitating doing harm to another human is not appropriate for Scouting.

[Fat Old Guy]

I guess that the pirate skit that I saw a summer camp is forbidden as well since it involved a pirate "killing" some crewmen with a cardboard sword.

 

Magic tricks in which the "helper" is sawn in half should be banned as well.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Fat Old Guy,

Shhhhhhhh, 'They're' listening and 'they're' everywhere.

[dsteele]

The sarcasm of Fat Old Guy and Packsaddle enhance rather than mock the point I am trying to make.

 

Let's not make Capture the Flag a restricted activity. Let's not make squirt gun fights a restricted activity.

 

Obey the rules. Lazer tag is a restricted activity. We don't teach kids to hunt people. Leave that to the military. It is not our role.

 

DS

[FScouter]

Thank you Mr. Steele.

 

When I was a young kid, my parents would not let me play with toy guns. And they would not let me play "army". All the other kids had guns and played "army", but not me. 40 years later I understand why they took such a strong position. Killing other people was not a value they wanted to teach. And I don't want my kids to learn that killing people is OK either. Killing people is not a "value", and Scouting doens't need that.