Does SM report to Committee Chair or Charter organizational rep. (COR)

[gene loy]

Our troop by-laws show that the troop committee and the SM both report to the Committee Chair. The Committee Chair is the contact between the troop and the COR. After hours of searching the web I see this issue to be a grey one with no answer.... Is there and absolute answer in the reporting relationship? Unfortuatly the group that created our bylaws is no longer around to ask what reference was used. I have found this method of orginization and reporting to be sound in having one voice and one contact with the COR. There are exceptions to the Committee Chair being the only contact with the COR, However the Chairman has always been the person to promote the exception.

 

thanks for your thoughts,

 

SM, Troop 66

GG,CA

[scoutldr]

As I remember, (I am on the road and don't have references handy), the SM and CC both serve at the pleasure of the CO, who is responsible for recruiting and approving them. The rest of the troop committee is selected by the CC, with CO approval. ASMs are chosen by the SM, with approval of the CC and CO.

 

But it's hot here in Palm Springs (107 F) and my brain may be fried.

[Twocubdad]

I don't know if there is a difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts, but the Cubmaster reports to the pack committee, not just the committee chairman. Of course the COR or Institutional Head has to sign off on all adult applications. I've always looked at it as an "advise and conscent" relationship between the CO and the Pack committee.

[FScouter]

All adult leaders in a troop "serve at the pleasure of the CO" (Chartered Organization). The committee recruits the adults and the chartered organization approves them. The Scoutmaster is appointed by the head of the chartered organization, and "reports" to the committee, not solely to the Committee Chair. Assistant Scoutmasters are recruited by the Scoutmaster.

 

The Troop Committee Guidebook #34505B is the BSA reference that discusses the selection of adult leaders and what the reporting and organization structure looks like. It is available at the Scout Shop for about $4. It's confusing to have "Troop Bylaws" that conflict with BSA publications.

[Bob White]

"Does SM report to Committee Chair or Charter organizational rep. (COR)"

 

The Scoutmaster is part of a team of adults responsible for bringing scouting to boys. The Scoutmaster is responsible for for the image and program of the troop.

 

Looking for who reports to who will not make for better scouting in the unit. It is a team effort that requires each to do their specific job. The committee chair, for instance, is not charged with being the go-between for the COR and SM.

 

The troop would be served better if you scrapped your 'troop by-laws' and adopted the methods of operation found in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Troop Committee Guidebook. I would also strongly recommend that every registered adult be required to complete basic training for their position. Making things up as you go along is time consuming and will only lead to conflicts. The best way to provide a scouting program is by using the scouting methods and procedures which already exist.

 

Best of Luck,

Bob White

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

Troops aren't chartered to committees, but to Chartered Organizations. The CO approves all adult leaders (except MB counselors).

 

The CC as contact between the Troop and CO is a natural by-product of how adult leader applications flow for review/approval, from committee chair to COR. I've never seen local unit policies, however articulated, that limit the CC as the only registered leader in the unit who can deal with the CO. In fact, why wouldn't you want your COR to be acquainted with all the leaders in your unit?

 

We've had other threads/posts in here with by-laws as a topic, either intended or unintended. Bob White's "anti-Bylaw". While nothing from BSA national requires them, nothing forbids them, either. Some units are required to have by-laws by COs, military bases on which they operate, etc., in order to qualify as private organizations, or to reserve the meeting place, or some other reason. I'm ambivalent about them, personally. In the units I've been associated with, the bylaws were an effort to take the items the committee thought was important for parents to know from the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Troop Committee Guidebook, and boil it down into a single reference. Most parents will never read the books, even if you hand them to them, but are more likely to review the bylaws because it's expedient. That said, committees can and have usurped the program by writing things into bylaws that are contrary to the way the program is supposed to be delivered.

 

Proofread carefully, with the Handbooks and Guidebooks at your side...

 

KS

 

 

[NWScouter]

By-laws or written policy statements by units can be very important, especially when they concern matters not covered by BSA policy. Such the proceeds of fund-raisers, do you have scout accounts, how are the profits divided. The process of discipline, who determines the amount, where and how to appeal. The way funds are spent from the unit treasury, How a boy may move between patrols, when are the elections. I found rather than a formal by-laws a unit handbook with these unit specific rules plus short summeries of BSA rules gets everyone on the same page. Now before anyone get too excited in a Troop some of the unit specific rules are decided by the Patrol Leaders Council and some by the committee.

[Bob White]

I am not anti by-law, I am anti-duplication and contradiction.

 

I have not seen a unit by-law that was needed that was not already covered by the scouting program or a decision that could be made as needed by the PLC.

 

For instance the PLC should be determining elections not the adults and since the PLC changes over time they should not be tied to someone elses decision.

 

The way funds are spent should depend on the needs of the program as determined by the PLC, not dictated to them.

 

How a boy may move between the patrols is covered to a degree by the BSA program resources and is a decision best made based on the needs and characteristics of the scout not as a fixed policy.

 

The process of discipline is covered by the the scouting manuals and the guide to safe scouting.

 

Troop finances are the job of the troop treasurer and the team of the Committee Chair, COR and Scoutmaster. Since these people change and the needs of the troop changes to have a static policy is uneeded and inefficient.

 

The guidelines you need to operate a scout unit are already written for you in the resources of the scouting program.

 

So I am not anti-by-law, I am pro scouting methods. Big difference.

 

Bob White

 

 

[NWScouter]

Bob,

The reasons you have policy and bylaw is spell out beforehand process before they can become matter of personalities. The matter of fair play comes into play. If for example training classes for leaders are paid for out of troop funds, and it has only been paying for basic courses. Now a leader comes and applies for wood badge to be paid because the Troop pays for training. I have seen that happen where it has caused resentment and hurt feelings. A simple statement of policy established long before the fact would have prevented it. What is paid for out troop funds, does the Scoutmaster get to purchase that piece of equipment or pay for that state park fee come out of money collected for a outing or the general troop account. Who approves the purchase? What paperwork is required? All a matter of fairness. What happens to a boys scout account when he moves on to a new troop? We had a topic a while back were a family left a troop because of a disagreement to another troop. They had seen other boys transfer their accounts to new troop. Now they werent allowed because they were not moving out of town per a ruling of the Scoutmaster. Never written down, never explained, now a matter of personalities, hurt feelings and perceived vindictiveness. The PLC changes the time of the elections or the frequency, may be thought of as a power play by a clique of scouts. Sets established time and method thought out and developed by the PLC and held to, brings the element of fairness and appearance of equal access to all scouts. Rules that cover areas not covered by BSA guidelines or to expand on them to fit the local unit bring stability and harmony.

 

[Bob White]

We are brought back to the misconception that a pack or troop committee operates by majority rule or vote. Nowhere is that required, and in only one sentence is the word 'vote' even used in the Troop Committee Guidebook to my knowledge.

 

Decisions are made through cooperation of the unit key-3 and tasks are assigned to the committee members to complete. Every situation you bring up can be determined by the unit Key-3 (program head (CM or SM), CC & COR),or the PLC on a situational basis.

 

Additional paperwork is just that. it creates beaurocracy that causes more problems than it solves and takes time away from the actual job of the committee. I am not saying that a unit cannot do it, or that there might not be some trivial amount of unit information that might result in a "by-law" or unit policy. It just is not a neccessity for a quality scouting program and can in fact create more hurdles than anything else.

 

Bob White

[KoreaScouter]

 

 

Everything BW said is 100% correct regarding how decisions can and should be made within a Troop; tasks are assigned to committee members, how to determine the apportionment of fund-raising proceeds, or what is determined by the PLC on a situational or recurring basis.

 

The point is, rather than explain these things ad nauseum to parents/community leaders, or tell them to read the Troop Committee Guidebook or the SPL Handbook, many units choose to serve their interests by collecting this information in a single place. Call it by-laws, call it a Parent's Guide, call it disco if you want to, it doesn't matter.

 

Is it extra work for someone? Yes, but when you compare the time it takes to do that with the cost of misunderstandings, confusion, ignorance, and repeated questions for units that choose to have them, and they probably believe it's time well spent, or they wouldn't do it.

 

Also, remember that some units are required to have by-laws in order to reserve meeting places, operate in certain places, fund raise, qualify for free or discounted bank services, etc.

 

KS

[Bob White]

don't get me wrong KS, I'm a big fan of godd communication within a unit. What i'm talking about is that most of the rules, policies, by-laws, whatever you want to call them that unit comittees fret and debate over are already a part of the scouting program. Adults would save a lot of time, duplication, and contradictory methods by spending the time to learn the real scouting program than by trying to create their own.

 

I would bet that you could take the by-laws created by any scout unit and by removing the information that is already contained in scouting resources along with anything that conflicts with scouting resources and reduce it to a half page of average sized type, double spaced.

 

Then you still have to deal with the 'what-ifers' of the group. Those that want to know what if this happens or what if that happens. Why not wait until a situation arises and let the key 3 of the unit make a decision and then continue on scouting. Over management of scout units is a common malady. Sand lot baseball was ruined for kids when adults got involved and formed leagues. Kids used to decide when to play, who to play, what positions they would play, how long they would play, who would be on what team. Then adults came along. The adults make the schedule, the adults determine the position you play, the adults decide when and where you play. the adults choose the uniform etc. etc.

 

The same thing happens when committiees start micromanaging the unit through by-laws rather than through a program philosophy and goals.

 

Just an observation.

Bob White

[eisely]

Philosophically I am somewhat conflicted on this question. Excess paperwork should be avoided. However I come down on this with Korea Scouter and others who see a benefit from having certain things written down before the controversey arises. Most of these decisions should flow from the PLC but they still need to be written down. I would probably tend to call such documents, if collected in a single place, a "policy manual."

 

For example, there are some tough issues related to advancement and what level of participation or effort should be required to get credit for a leadership position, or just being "active". I have become a strong advocate of having written statements of "expectations" in place before a youth takes on a leadershhip position and expects to get his ticket punched just for having his name on the organization chart. Whatever standards a unit chooses to set should come out of the PLC, but once agreed upon, need to be written down to avoid misinterpretation and unnecessary controversy.

[Bob White]

Then why not have as your "policy manual" that "in all scouting related issues the troop will follow the related program practices and policies of the Boy Scouts of America. All other decions will be made through cooperation of the Scoutmaster, comittee chair, and COR based on the unique circumstances of the event and the needs and characteristics of those involved."

 

This would avoid the problem of the original post of the COR doing the wrong job and of the troop eisley serves from violating the advancement procedures by not following the Scout Handbook in determining things like serving actively in a leadership role. Or PLC or troop committee telling a patrol who can be elected within their own patrol.

 

Too often these "troop policies" are used as an excuse for not needing to be trained or learn the BSA program, because the troop has "their own policies". By letting everyone know up front that the policy of the troop is to follow the scouting program the only authority you need to reference are the scouting resources.

 

Is there any reason why this could not work?

 

Bob White

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Philosophically, I agree with Bob. And I would absolutely agree with him if we were talking about working with a group of registered Scouters. Were that the case, referring them to their training or any of a number of resources to which they should have access is absolutely appropriate.

 

Generally, however, I think the audience for most of these documents are parents who aren't -- and may never be -- fully knowledgable of the program. My pack (dang it!) the pack which I serve doesn't have a bylaws for all the reasons Bob outlines. But we do have a Parent's Guide which in addition to nuts-and-bolts stuff like phone numbers, directions to the Scout Shop, a uniform shopping list, and the Cub Scout glossary from another thread, it also has about three pages discussing the Cub Scout program generally. We start with the Mission, Aims, Methods and Values of Cub Scouting. A large section is titled "Your Son's Success = Your Involvement." Most is lifted from other Scout resources, but some is original to our pack. Yes, it was a fair amount of work to create, but that plus an orientation meeting and an admonition to "read you son's handbook," does a pretty good job of getting our parents up to speed.

 

This is strictly an orientation document and doesn't include any sort of policy and procedures. In no way would I consider it to be our bylaws. If another unit wanted to include their local policies for handling Scout accounts or discipline, I don't see the harm ther, AS LONG AS they are consistent with the BSA policies. As evidenced by the questions/problems which repeatedly appear on the forum, the BSA policies allow enough variation to cause problems for some units from time to time. (Seems like it usually involves money.) An upfront understanding of how things are handled could be a good idea. Obviously the policies can and should be changed when circumstances change.

 

A somewhat separate question for you Bob: you mentioned the Key-3 of the unit. I've never heard the Key-3 mentioned except in reference to a district of council. Is that used in relation to Troops? I've not seen it referenced in any pack-related literature.