What is your program about?”

[acco40]

I don't wnat to get in the middle of the debate between Bob White and evmori but ...

 

At my recent Commissioner's College class, the question was raised, "How many of you are in urban scouting?" Other than assuming that it was scouting in an urban (inner city) environment I don't have any idea what they meant. They did not really expand what the program was but to me it did sound like that it did have some fundamental differences. I don't remember it ever being referenced either in BSA literature. Is it a formal program or just a generic reference to the trials and tribulations of trying to deliver the Scouting program in an urban environment?

[mk9750]

Ed,

 

I've lived in comfortable suburbia all my life, so I truly am ignorant here. Is there a difference between my Scouting experience and the urban Scouting experience?

 

I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm serious. From my perspective, I can't imagine much of a difference. But I've got a very one - sided perspective.

 

I'll agree that Scouting may be more difficult in the city, although that I don't even know for sure, because I've never tried to do it. But I'm struggling to see how it would be different.

 

Mark

[Bob White]

Urban scouting does indeed have unique problems; recruitment of adult role models, financing, availability of safe outdoor activity areas and such. What does not change are the aims and methods of the scouting program. The advancement requirements stay the same, the skills of leadership, troop structure and effective teaching elements all remain the same. The Program is the same, some packaging and some administration is different. It's the same show it's just a different theater.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[mk9750]

Yeah, that's kind of how I was thinking. I'm sure it's got to be tough in that environment to get role models, to find money, etc. But I wouldn't have thought that the program itself changes. But I want to keep an open mind, so I'm going to wait for Ed, or any one else who has experience working specifically in that setting, to set me straight.

 

Mark

[evmori]

"The Program is the same, some packaging and some administration is different. It's the same show it's just a different theater."

 

This is exactly what I have been saying!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, are the Aims and Methods the same?

 

Is the Mission Statement the same?

 

What is the difference?

[evmori]

OGE,

The presentation is the only difference.

 

Ed

[Bob White]

Please define what you mean as presentation.

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

Nevertheless - NJ, my point seems to have escaped you.

 

Perhaps. It has been a bit of a challenge to follow what your point actually is, since you have stated it several different ways. Be that as it may, we'll go with how you say it this time.

 

My contention was that troops (via their adult or boy leadership) should not force Scouts or Scouters to pray these prayers routinely and/or prohibit any other kinds of prayer simply because they are not generic and/or standard.

 

So maybe there is no problem at all. I am not aware of troops "forcing" Scouts to do anything. What I mainly do know is what goes on in my son's troop. At the end of every meeting the SPL says, Scout Sign, Scout Oath, everybody says it; then he says Scout Law, everybody says it; then he bows his head into his encircled arms, everybody else (boys and adults) does the same, and together they say "May the Great Master of all Scouts" etc.

 

Is that "forcing"?

 

By the way, for whatever it's worth, I believe that nobody ever actually told my son to do this. Nobody ever showed it to him individually. At his first meeting he saw everybody doing the Scout sign, oath and law, and he knew those from getting Arrow of Light, so he did them. (I had also made sure he practiced a bit before the meeting, so he could try to get the Scout badge right then.) Then he saw everybody else doing the Great Master thing, and he followed along. I have a strong feeling that sometime during his second or third meeting, he said to someone else in his patrol, "hey, what are we supposed to say when we bow our heads at the end of the meeting?" They told him, so now he knows what to say.

 

I realize that there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet my house that the following is true - Troops that evoke standard and/or generic prayers routinely, recite them with the same kind passion of that a court stenographer might display. Furthermore, they are usually mumbled to the point whereas only those familiar with the prayer can fully recognize what is being said.

 

I wouldn't even try to dispute that. I also think that if a unit is satisfied with this, there is nothing in the BSA program that I am aware of that says they can't, or shouldn't, do it.

 

I believe we should encourage actions that impassion our Scouts about their faith, not alienate them from it.

 

I think you are making a leap from mumbling and lack of "passion" to "alienation." But again, I think your opinion can be put into effect in your troop and those other troops that follow your advice. What my son's troop does seems to work for it.

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

First, I challenge you to go back and read my previous posts. While I may have addressed different points on the same subject, my message has been consistent.

 

Second, I never stated that what your son's troop does is wrong. Nor do I contend that they must do something else.

 

If I'm guilty of repeating the same argument in different ways, it's because I've assumed that you could not understand my previous statements. Now it appears to me, no matter how I state my opinion, you will consistently try to find fault even when there is no real center of dispute.

 

BUT in case you missed it the first time, MY POINT IS -

 

If the chartering organization has no religious affiliation (i.e., LDS, Catholic, etc.), I don't feel it should be a unit decision. It should be the Scout or Scouter's decision as to how he says a prayer.

 

In other words, if a unit tells a boy, "say these prayers and these prayers only" or "you can only say prayers in this manner" or "you cannot recognize your God by name", then I think the unit is overstepping its bounds...if not legally, then ethically. Every Scout and Scouter should remain free to pray as he feels led. It does not matter if the Scout wants to say the "Great Scoutmaster" prayer, the Lord's Prayer, or something from the heart. I just don't want to see units attempting to monitor and control people's prayers, public or not - even if it they use the auspice of "inclusiveness".

 

And yes, from a personal perspective, I prefer prayers from the heart and I think they should be encouraged for the reasons that I have already stated (in previous posts). But, I did not say that other units should force their boys to pray that way that would be just as wrong as banning prayers from the heart.

 

I hope this clears it up for you. If not, pray about it. ;-) Because I have no more energy or words that I care to expend on this subject.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster, I can agree that we have beaten the subject into the great beyond. I think the subject of religion in Scouting is one that continues to be worth discussing, but probably in the Issue and Politics section, and not right at the moment.

[evmori]

Presentation - how it is presented.