What is your program about?”

[OldGreyEagle]

See, FOG, I like "the Great Scoutmaster of the Scouts" because each scout can say it in a hearty manner and it could be Yahweh, Buddha, Allah, the Great Manitou etc.

It can be the center figure(s) of that scouts' faith.

 

In a group of Christians, Jews and Moslems I guess praying to the God of Abraham would be ok, but the Hindu's, Buddhists and Shintoists are out of luck.

[NJCubScouter]

FatOldGuy, that reminds me of when I was driving my son home from his third or fourth troop meeting. I had observed that the troop did that benediction every time, and I also saw that nobody had explained it to my son, he was just doing what everybody else was doing. So I asked him whether he knew who the Great Scoutmaster is. His answer was, "God?", with the question mark. So I said, that's right, God.

 

Now some might say, aha, this story works against my point that this is an acceptable prayer for a troop that decides to use it. I don't think so. I suspect that if after my son's first 30 days of kindergarten, during which he had recited the Pledge of Allegiance 30 times, i had asked him what "allegiance" meant, he probably would not have known the answer at all, even with a question mark. (As I sit here, I have to wonder what percentage of American adults today would not know the correct answer either.) The point is that he knew, or came to know, that he was expressing love, devotion, respect etc. for his country. Same thing with the Great Scoutmaster, if you know what it means then it has the meaning it is supposed to have. And you do know what it means, references to Baden-Powell aside.

 

Which leads to another example. One of the several common references to God is as "Lord." In the standard Jewish blessing, the first line includes three references to God, the first of which is translated into Englsih as "Lord." (Baruch ata Adonai, Elohenu, Melech H'Olam = Blessed art thou O Lord, our God, King of the Universe.) Now, "Lord" can mean other things as well, including (which is why I bring it up) Lord Robert Baden-Powell. But in a prayer, we don't mean him.

 

All I am really saying is that if it works for a unit, it works, and if the unit wants something else, that's fine too. I'm not telling anybody what to do.

[Rooster7]

All I am really saying is that if it works for a unit, it works, and if the unit wants something else, that's fine too. I'm not telling anybody what to do.

 

Perhaps I am having too much of a knee-jerk reaction - But, the problem I have with your statement, is this - If the chartering organization has no religious affiliation (i.e., LDS, etc.), I don't feel it should be a unit decision. It should be the Scout or Scouter's decision as to how he says a prayer.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[NJCubScouter]

OGE is right, the "Great Scoutmaster" is whatever deity the boy believes in, and can emcompass any belief system. If instead of a specific "God" the boy believes in a "spirit" or spiritual force or forces, of whatever name, then that is what is being asked to watch over us. (That would take in Buddhism and at least some Native American religions, by my understanding.) It also covers polytheism, whether that consists of many separate gods, or one god in many manifestations (and I have heard explanations of Hinduism that fall into each category). The Great Scoutmaster could be one of these gods or manifestations, or all of them together. It's up to the boy.

[jbroganjr]

Rooster

I feel a kindred spirit on this issue.

Too often, I have seen good intentions implemeted wrongly. I.E. an adult patrol, set up for a good example, telling the young scout, almost with glee, no you cannot share, this is the adult patrol's meal. Instead of taking the time to develop a working relationship, an opportunity to teach, the effort has been sidetracked into a wrongheaded display.

As for religion, and the diversity of religion, I agree that it is insulting to tuck away the way I pray so as not insult someone.

To resolve this dilema, I encourage and promote different prayers of different faiths that the youth or leaders practice. It is more important that youth see and understand devotion, no matter what faith and to make no distinction or favoritism of faith. I take from your thread that this is what you are conveying.

At the round table which I commission.... I have set up a schedule of prayers from different faiths. Matching folks to this can be a job, but it is important to let scouters see in action expressions of these different faiths.

Back to Patriotism/Duty to God/Duty to Country. We are touching on the service requirements here. I believe service should be meaningful. (i.e. the program that I am vaguely aware of for way more that an hour a week does: Caroling for elderly, shut ins and sick folks, I want to get the boys to give back to the communitiy by doing good deeds for folks who are sick or can no longer manage painting a fence, raking leaves etc. all of which serve the community, put beliefs in practice and promote a greater sense of what scouting is to our youth)

I hope the message of it is more than just camping or who makes the best DO stew gets across. I hope that when the youth engage in challenging endeavors, such as orienteering, mountain climbing, planning that big trip, etc that all of us take the time to explain the why and whats to the boys.

Great thread Rooster, thank you

[acco40]

In the words of Jim Morrison:

 

When I was back there in seminary school

There was a person there

Who put forth the proposition

That you can petition the Lord with prayer

Petition the lord with prayer

Petition the lord with prayer

You cannot petition the lord with prayer!

 

I believe that one can be reverent and firmly believe that you cannot petition the lord (or Lord if you prefer) with prayer. Open your mind folks. I also believe that many who publicly pray are not reverent. Now I don't get bothered by those who pray, but yes I do take offense when an individual who is supposed to represent a very diverse group (such as our current president) makes references to Jesus Christ in public prayer. Now, we've had this debate before so we don't need to continue.

 

If one studies the psychological makeup of boys 11 - 18 one realizes that they are just beginning to realize that many adults say one thing and do another! While this is no big surprise to us sophisticated adults, it is to many of them. That is why they roll their eyes when adults preach to them about sex, drugs, religion, character building or whatever. That is why I firmly believe that we influence them with our deeds much more than our words. They don't need to be told, they need to be shown (that's why we are called role models, not preachers or lecturers!).

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Rooster, in our case, if the CO DID decide to promote prayer according to their flavor, only one or two boys would recognize it that way. Nearly everyone else would go along politely but it wouldn't necessarily represent their faiths and for about a third of the troop, it definitely wouldn't represent their faith.

I further think you have misinterpreted some of the statements that have been made. Being inclusive doesn't automatically mean that some persons views are "oppressed". I am not sure how you drew that conclusion. In the case of the troop I serve, it means that a minority (the SM) does not dominate everyone else.

[Mike Long]

Interesting tidbit about the "Great Scoutmaster" prayer.

 

Our Scouts didn't recognise it as a prayer.

I asked them who they thought the "Great Scoutmaster" was.

You of course, Mr. Long. They told me.

 

I was flattered, embarassed and more than a little disconcerted.

 

I see I have some more work to do.

[dsteele]

Excellent post Mike!

 

I agree that you have a lot of work to do, but it can and should be done. The fact that it needs to be done is not yours.

 

I remember telling an adult in the troop that the Great Scoutmaster was Mr. B -- and I inadvertantly opened the door to some very subtle discussions about religion in general. No, no one preached to me or tried to convert me to their religion . . . but shortly thereafter I became interested in all religious points of view -- which continue to this day and probably beyond.

 

The religious journey began with staring up at the stars and looking at the wonders of the earth . . . and has spread.

 

Thanks for the post, Mike.

 

DS

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

Open your mind folks

 

Ironically, I offer you the same advice.

 

Many folks are not lukewarm in their belief. My God demands that I recognize Him and Him alone. My children are taught the same. In Scouting, I expect their right to believe in and to act upon their faith to be respected. No where in Scouting literature does the BSA ask Scouts and Scouters to hide their religious beliefs. If you are open minded (as you've suggested), for the sake of your own religious freedoms, you should be able to tolerate other people's viewpoints and their prayers. It should not matter who is in the majority and who is not, so long as everyone is given the opportunity to express their faith.

[acco40]

What I have a hard time with is why individuals feel that "to recognize" or "adore" or "worship" that it has to be in a public manner. I tell my children that they may pray all they want at their public school. It is my understanding that nobody has invented thought monitors just yet. However, I am very much against our public education system conducting verbal prayers or moments of silence solely for the purpose of prayer.

 

Why does you feel your faith requires you to verbalize your prayer? Boys at this age have a great desire to fit in. I can't count the number of times I've seen boys tell others to take off their hat, bow their head, etc. and to "act accordingly" during prayer. They don't yet comprehend that religious customs vary widely. Heck my own children have admonished me for not kneeling during mass (I'm not Catholic).

[Fat Old Guy]

As I read the Old Testament, the God of the Jews does not say that there is no other god, just that you can put no other god before him which would make him the Supreme God. Leaves lots of room for the existence of Thor, Apollo, and Shiva.

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

What I have a hard time with is why individuals feel that "to recognize" or "adore" or "worship" that it has to be in a public manner.

 

I understand that a person may have a personal like or dislike for public prayer, but that is not the issue. Were talking about a troops willingness to allow individual Scouts and Scouters to express their faith. Some faiths encourage public prayer, so long as the focus is on the petition and God, not oneself. Regardless, a troops willingness to allow individuals to express their faith should not be based on the personal preferences of others.

 

I tell my children that they may pray all they want at their public school. It is my understanding that nobody has invented thought monitors just yet. However, I am very much against our public education system conducting verbal prayers or moments of silence solely for the purpose of prayer.

 

I understand that some folks are against any accommodation made by a public entity to allow and/or to encourage prayer (although, Im not one of those folks), but again that is not the issue. Were discussing a specific private organization, the BSA. Public prayers have been conducted at BSA meetings for generations. The issue is - Should a troop attempt to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters? I believe the answer is No.

 

Why does you feel your faith requires you to verbalize your prayer?

 

That question does not appear to be relevant. The answer to that question should NOT guide a troops policy on public prayer. How a Scout or Scouter interprets religious doctrine, or how he feels God is guiding his actions, should not be open for debate.

 

Boys at this age have a great desire to fit in. I can't count the number of times I've seen boys tell others to take off their hat, bow their head, etc. and to "act accordingly" during prayer. They don't yet comprehend that religious customs vary widely. Heck my own children have admonished me for not kneeling during mass (I'm not Catholic).

 

I dont see how these last thoughts tie into the discussion. Whether or not all Scouts can appreciate someone elses religious customers or convictions, is not the issue. Your counter-arguments (if thats what they were intended to be) are distractions. Should a troop attempt to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters? If your child does not understand a prayer, then I suggest that you as the parent educate him as you see fit. The answer is NOT to force everyone to say the same prayer.

 

FOG,

 

As I read the Old Testament, the God of the Jews does not say that there is no other god, just that you can put no other god before him which would make him the Supreme God. Leaves lots of room for the existence of Thor, Apollo, and Shiva.

 

While I generally agree with many of your thoughts, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Old Testament. The God of the Jews (who is the same God of the Christians) was not telling his people that it was okay to recognize other gods, or even that other gods existed, he was simply telling them to put Him first above all other things. In a spiritual sense, when it comes to neglecting God, almost anything can be considered a god. For example, for some folks, sexual sin can be considered a god, because they put their desire/lust to obtain that gratification above their desire to please God and conform to His precepts. Even professional football can be considered a god if you place a higher priority on seeing the game then you do on worshiping God with His people. Per the Old Testament and the New Testament, anything that draws you away from the true God, can be considered a god. Regardless, this does not mean that we (Jews or Christians) cannot hear the prayers of others. If a Scout publicly prays to a Hindu god or Buddha, I can simply (and silently) change the address. If a Scout makes a petition to God that I dont feel is appropriate, I can simply (and silently) change the petition. In short, hearing does not equate to agreeing or believing. There is no good reason to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters public or not.

 

Now, can we move this thread back to its original intent? Does your troop implement the BSA program in a manner that puts focus on character building?

 

My favorite responses thus far have been from Laurie, Twocubdad, Eagledad, and jbroganjr

 

They seem to understand my concern. I like what they are doing in their troops. NJ, youve been trying to pick an argument with me since the beginning of this thread. Okay, so youve successfully picked an argument with me. Im easy. Im passionate about what I believe and Im quick to take the bait. Lets move on. How about this? Lets drop the discussion on prayer for the moment - Please try to address the bigger picture.

 

[packsaddle]

Good point, FOG. And later, in Exodus 20:5, "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"

and then in 20:15, "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

Care to comment on that jealousy aspect? 'whose name is Jealous'??? There might be room for gods that aren't jealous? Yeah, right! You think someone might be holding a tiny little grudge?

 

But I see Rooster's point in all this. If I interpret it correctly, he views restraint of public prayer as regulation. A different view is that official endorsement of public prayer is regulation. I think both views are in agreement in that regulation or promotion of religion by the state is prohibited - the implementation is in question. If Rooster is suggesting that BSA should mandate public prayer, he should understand the good reasons for substantial resistance.

I know boys who take personal moments to say prayers. I consider this to be just fine. The rest of us try not to intrude. At the same time, those boys have no expectation that anyone (or everyone) else must similarly demonstrate their faith. I think this follows the golden rule and, so far, it works.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Rooster7]

Packsaddle,

 

No - I wasn't suggesting that prayer be mandated.

 

However, follow this logic. The BSA, as one of its main tenets, encourages Scouts and Scouters to practice their faith. Prayer, for most religions, is a huge part of one's faith. Consequently, it seems appropriate to me that troops should encourage prayer (not mandate it). Also, if public prayer is allowed (i.e., "Great Scoutmaster" or whatever), then all prayers should be accepted. They should not be submitted to a litmus test designed for inclusiveness. As soon as that starts, a troop is no longer encouraging a Scout or Scouter to embrace his own personal faith.