Campfire Ashes Project

[Kudu]

Last call! There is still time to participate!

 

I am helping in an effort to combine different lines of campfire ashes in an international St. George's Day celebration, April 23, 2006. If you are interested in including your campfire ashes and their history list of campfires, Email us at:

 

Ashes(at)Kudu.Net

 

replace (at) with @

 

In return we will send you ashes from the St. George's Day campfire and a master list of all of the campfire lineages included in the campfire!

 

Kudu

The Kudu Net

http://kudu.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm

 

 

[Kudu]

...a campfire ashes ceremony that I have head which also includes the story that Baden-Powell would always take a small amount of ashes from a ceremonial campfire and then spread these ashes into the next campfire. However, when I talked about the accuracy of this tradition with the Chief Commissioner of the international Baden-Powell Scouting Association (headquartered in England), he said that as far as he knew the story was purely an American invention.

 

Given the information that you mention, above I am interested in seeing the legend that you use, so I can make modifications/improvements in mine.

 

I discourage Scouts and Scouters from ever reading anything from a paper at a ceremony. What we like to do is have everyone march to the campfire in a line, then form a circle around the campfire, all the while singing Baden-Powell's Scout (Zulu) War Song, "Eengonyama." Everyone then uses a stick or Scout Stave to keep time as one or two Scouts within the circle near the fire silently pretend to stalk and do battle with an imaginary wild animal or foe. The first time I did this was when I talked my Beaver Patrol into it at Wood Badge.

 

B-P's detailed description of this War Dance, plus the music notation and a audio file can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm

 

(I would like to add a sound file to the above URL of "The Scout's Rally" and "The Scout's Call" if anyone can read music & record it.)

 

When done right, the Scouts lose their self-consciousness and the ceremony reaches a spontaneous fevered pitch like something out of "Lord of the Flies." At some point before the Scouts have had enough, I take the ashes and explain that the Eengonyama war song was sung on Brownsea Island at the very first Scout campfire at the end of the very first day of the very first Boy Scout campout. I mention some of the dates and places that I find interesting from the list, and then add the ashes to the campfire.

 

Kudu

 

http://kudu.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm

 

[AnneinMpls]

As I understand it, the tradition is that only those actually present at the campfire may recieve ashes, so I would be loathe to contribute - it just doesn't feel right to me

Anne in Mpls

[Kudu]

Anne in Mpls writes:

 

As I understand it, the tradition is that only those actually present at the campfire may receive ashes, so I would be loathe to contribute - it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

My guess is that this "tradition" was started by the same person who made up the story about how Baden-Powell would always take a small amount of ashes from a ceremonial campfire and then spread these ashes into the next campfire. This claim has been edited out of some scripts.

 

So the moral of the story is that if believing that Baden-Powell started the tradition (or that the ashes can only be distributed to people that are present), adds to the mystery of the ceremony for you and your Scouts, then fine. But for many of us the most important aspect of the sharing of fellowship is to be found in the magic of the long list campfires itself.

 

Kudu

 

[eagleSM]

 

hmmm,

 

yes, thats almost just what i am looking for. a "Lord of the Flies" Boy Scout Troop.

 

or maybe not?

 

while its just a gut feeling, i'm not quite certain that my CO Church or my boys' parents would be looking for this as well.

 

as a Country at War, my unit has suffered enough losses as it is. good kids, who now are gone. we don't need to pretend.

 

sorry, my unit will have to pass you up your "Last call" on this one.

 

eagleSM

 

[Kudu]

eagleSM,

 

hmmm, your post was helpful, friendly, kind, and cheerful.

 

or maybe not?

 

Yeah, maybe not.

 

sorry

 

I accept your apology.

 

Kudu

 

 

[eagleSM]

Kudu,

 

you are correct. i never intended my post to be quote, "helpful, friendly, kind, and cheerful."

 

but i did intend it to be "brave". to speak the truth, as i see your comments.

 

as i recall, the Lord of the Flies movie has half-naked-boys running around the campfire, as you state to:

 

"lose their self-consciousness and the ceremony reaches a spontaneous fevered pitch like something out of "Lord of the Flies."

 

i question as to the desire of the Founder that his wish for Scouting was to witness boys in such a state.

 

my Charter would not endorse such a scene.

 

sorry, hmmm, no apology here, Kudu.

 

eagleSM

 

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

 

eagleSM writes:

 

i never intended my post to be quote, "helpful, friendly, kind, and cheerful."

 

OK, so your mean-spirited attempt to discourage other people was intentionally unScout-like.

 

but i did intend it to be "brave". to speak the truth, as i see your comments.

 

"Brave" was not one of Baden-Powell's ten Scout Laws. Maybe he had "eagleSMs" like you in mind :-/

 

as i recall, the Lord of the Flies movie has half-naked-boys running around the campfire

 

William Golding (the author of "Lord of the Flies") believed that boys are inherently bad. Baden-Powell believed that boys are inherently good. I am in Baden-Powell's camp.

 

"When done right, the Scouts lose their self-consciousness and the ceremony reaches a spontaneous fevered pitch like something out of "Lord of the Flies."

 

i question as to the desire of the Founder that his wish for Scouting was to witness boys in such a state.

 

You would be exactly wrong:

 

"Although the war dance and songs may seem at first sight to be gibberishespecially to those who have never had much to do with boysyet there is a certain value underlying them as a corrective of self-consciousness.

 

"If you want, for instance, to get discipline among your lads it means their constantly bottling up some energy that requires an occasional vent or safety-valve. A war dance supplies such vent, but still in a certain disciplined way.

 

"Also it forms an attraction to wilder spirits who would never join a band of quieter boys.

 

"Mr. Tomlin, "the hooligan tamer", catches and gets his lads in hand entirely by the force of energetic singing and action in chorus." See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm

 

sorry,

 

I accept your apology.

 

hmmm, no apology here, Kudu.

 

Too late. You said you were sorry twice and I have already accepted both of your apologies.

 

No take-backs.

 

Kudu

 

 

[eagleSM]

"No take-backs."

 

Childs Play, Madame.

 

Good Bye!

[MaScout]

We won't be participating, either. Not so much from any "political" type issues, though, as I can't hardly get my dishes done, so I'm certainly NOT going to get ashes mailed out anywhere!

 

However, the reason I'm posting is just to share a story. We have 3 sons. The oldest is "Joe Scouter" to the max. The youngest was Mr. Ho-Hum for a long time. When the oldest had his Eagle CoH (outdoors), he started a "family can" of ashes. He had his uncle (who is an Eagle) light the fire, then at the end of the ceremony, he put ashes in the can, which he handed off to son #2, urging him to do the same for son #3 when he got his Eagle. Then asking both brothers for a committment to continue the ash can for each of their sons as they got Eagle. A new family tradition was hatched. AND Son #1 caught son #3...NO WAY he is missing out on something so important!

 

Ahhh...it feels so good when it works.

 

MaScout

[MaScout]

not to mention ida ben 2 late anyway...

[AnneinMpls]

I'd like to try again to put into words why I am (mildly, not strongly!) in opposition to this project.

Currently we have the tradition in place as it has been for a long long time. It's a good tradition. It's enjoyable and has just enough air of mystery of something that's been carried forward from time immemorial to be really pretty durned cool.

There are all these various threads of history passing down through entertwined interweaving lineages of these campfire ashes. At any point, someone could begin the tradition anew, or add on to an existing lineage, keeping the tradition alive and vibrant.

My fear is that by combining all these existing lineages (or as many as you would be able to get) and creating a "superlineage" soon folks would start to believe that it was the only "real" and correct" interpretation of the tradition. It would lose its vitality.

"Lord of the Flies" indeed

It's a fabulous tradition as it exists. Don't mess with it

Anne in Mpls

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have a quart jar of ashes that I use. I make up a story that fits the occasion and throw them on the fire. Each time the story is different, having a linage or characters and adventures from the time and place they were derived. It gets pretty funny, especially for the boys that have already heard two or three before. Ashes give credence and authenticity to a story unlike anything else. Search the internet and you will find hundreds of sites to back me up. Even now as I write, I am sprinkling ashes onto the keyboard. These came from a place that did not have computers and now ughgt awgggha dfskjsdlj

[SSScout]

I first heard the "Baden - Powell" Campfire ash story at a Parent Son Overnight. In all my Scout history, going back to the 60's, I had not heard of it before. I was very impressed,took hold of the 'tradition'. I eventually asked the man who had presented the story ( the discovery of fire, it's taming and use for good or ill, the fellowship and spiritual center imbued in a campfire, story telling, etc.) and asked him about the truth of it. He said that the men who had given the story to him had assured him of its truth. All good, loyal Scouts, the 'Man' lineage evidently going back 50 or 60 years...

He gave me a looonngg pedegree, including Brownsea Island, national and world Jamborees, campfires in almost every state, 50 other countries, and a trip of some ashes to the moon with an Apollo Astronaut...

And now I am told the story is a made up myth?

So I am left with deciding 1) Does the story SOUND true? Is it credible? 2) Is it important to have DOCUMENTATION as to B-P's having actually started this chain of campfires? and 3) Can I BELIEVE the men who told the story to me? and 4) Is there VALUE in passing the story on to others (not just Scouts!)?

1) Yes, it SOUNDS true. It could have happened. It has the ring of B-P in it, from what I've read of him.

2) I do not have the actual DOCUMENTATION. I'm not sure I could do the research necessary. Others must give testimony to the yea or nea of it.

3) "A Scout is Trustworthy". If a Scout, ANY Scout, tells me something, I will believe him/her until I undeniably find out different. It is what our "program" is all about. Check the OLD Handbooks, and you will find words to the effect that should a Scout be found untrustworthy, he might be asked to turn over his Scout badge (see another thread about rescinding Scout membership or earned rank).Unadulterated truth, with or without an "oath".

4)It makes a real thought provoker. The passing on of tradition. The use of a commodity (FIRE!) in ways one might not ordinarily consider. Collection of a nondescript, otherwise worthless material (ashes and coals) as a remembrance of things and times gone by. A connection to the REALLY distant past. The story has been used (by me and as I've listened, by others) to link Scouts with Scouting's Past, with grandparents and their time, with the importance of passing on family, personal history, of the importance of LISTENING to the elders....( a link to the invention of cooking and barbecue comes to mind)

So will I continue to tell this "story"? I think I will.

[Miki101]

Scouting if full of myths.

 

The "campfire ashes" story is probably one but it really does not matter. As a Scouting researcher, I have come across several myths that are perpetuated simply because the facts have never been examined because the stories "could" be regarded as true.

 

It reality, the "ashes" story has nothing to do about honesty. It's all about the power of the yarn, and the picturesqueness of the imagery, and that is all B-P, Seton and Beard. I'm working on another book and came across an interesting Seton quote,"Only the ancient sacred fire of wood has the power to touch and thrill the chords of primitive rememberance."

 

Rememberance...remember the founders...remember those that have gone before you...remember all of the ashes and pedigrees that COULD have come from Brownsea. It's the SPIRIT of Scouting that lives on in those ashes. The "ashes" story does, however, make a nice talking point and will set a powerfully reflective scene but - here's the key - we all truly wish the story to be true. That's why the authenticity matters not.

 

I believe that everyone should know the truth for the mere fact that everyone should know the truth...but you don't have to tell the boys just yet. Let their minds dance in the flames and let them have a tangible link to the glorious past that is Scouting.

 

Reality comes all to soon sometimes.

 

David C. Scott