BSA racism?

[Greying Beaver]

Re: LDS and scouting.

This a condensation of talking with several scouters, including the instructors at Venture Advisor Training at Philmont 2 years ago, and a Philmont staffer freshly home just in time to start school:

1.) Every boy in every LDS congregation is registered with BSA in the age appropriate group, whether or not the boy is actually active or not. And the congregation pays for it! 2.) Every LDS congragation sponsors a cub scout pack, a boy scout troop, a varsity scout team, and a boys-only venture crew. 3.) The 6 through 10-and-a-half yr. olds are cubs/webelos. The 10-and-a-half's through 13's are boy scouts. The 14 and 15's are varsity team members. The 16 and 17's are venturers. At 18 the boys leave on their 2-year "missions". Because once registered as a boy scout, a youngster may begin working through the rank system towards Eagle in all of the programs. 4.) LDS congregation-sponsored unit's leaders are not volunteers; the congregation's pastor (bishop), after prayerful consideration, appoints a leader for each unit, and that adult is suddenly the cubmaster, scoutmaster, etc., no if's and's or but's. 5.) Going to Philmont is not an option for LDS troops, teams, or crews. Why? Because hiking from one camp to another with all personal and crew gear on Sunday is mandatory, doing so is considered "laboring on the Sabath (LDS'ers do not labor on the Sabath, period.)". BSA National has purchased property south of Philmont with six-day treks all beginning on a Mondays. It's called the H&H ranch, I think. I do know that currenly that it is not developed; no campsites, no programs at trail camps, no water available anywhere except at the base camp. LDS'ers are opting to go there. 6.) Any contact with any unit leader or the bishop about anything to do with BSA has to be cleared by the local "stake" (area) president before any contact with the bishop or unit leaders can take place. 7.) Up unitl recently, blacks were not welcome in LDS-sponsored units. After "the correction", blacks could join LDS-sponsored troops but could not serve as SPL's, elected or not. There was "another correction" in the LDS scouting program. You can see what drives these "corrections", but I won't go there . . . again; no t-shirt, no coffee mug.

Now, what were we talking about. . . ?

[OldGreyEagle]

Of course, opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect much more than that poster's opinion

[Prairie_Scouter]

Acco,

If you were responding to my last post, I wasn't stating that LDS units discriminate against blacks. That was established earlier in the thread, along with a discussion about LDS correcting this recently. I was asking, if this assertion was true, how did BSA allow this to take place in the first place if it violated BSA policy?

 

Kahuna,

I'd have to agree with you. The "business side" of BSA would probably not like to lose the 400,000 or Scouts that are in LDS units, and seem to have given them a certain amount of flexibility in how to implement their program. Whether it's effectively the same program is open to discussion, I suppose, but I was surprised that BSA might allowed discrimination by race to be allowed in any of its units. If that's true, then that's quite a bit different than what you usually hear here, ie, LDS units were allowed some "considerations" in how they implement the program. This would seem to be more a serious diversion from BSA policy. If it's true. Greying Beaver provided some really interesting information. The thing to do now would be to hear from others on its accuracy. GB, please don't take that personally. No matter what we say here, someone will probably disagree , so it's always good to hear something from two different sources. What you stated, tho, is what I've also heard in these forums.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Prairie_Scouter)

[scoutingagain]

Let's face it. While the national organization of the BSA can say it does not discriminate based on race,(It doesn't, there are units with nearly every racial make up one can think of.) it does allow individual Chartering Organizations to establish their own membership criteria. It some cases this situation results in highly segregated units. This may not be discrimination but is effective segregation that would not likely be allowed in a public organization. (Remember Bussing?) While LDS units may not be officially allowed to descriminate based on race, they can require members to be members of the LDS. How many Black Americans are members of the LDS and would be eligible for membership in an LDS unit? And it's not just LDS CO's either. There are Orthodox Jewish units as well, just how many Black Orthodox Jews are there that would be eligable for membership in those units?

 

So while there is not blatant racial decrimination, there certainly is passive segregation going on.

 

SA

 

 

[NeilLup]

Greying Beaver is, I believe, mostly right on the mark. There are a few places where my understanding is a bit different but, as I am not a member of the LDS church, I will leave it to someone who is to give that completely accurate information.

 

But as far as PLs and the SPLs, LDS units do not, I understand, have elections like other units. Rather, the Boy Scout unit is an official part of the youth program of the church and leaders are selected as all LDS leaders are -- they are "chosen by God" and sustained by the people they will lead. God, in this case, I suspect, acts through the person of the Scoutmaster and the youth group leadership of the local ward (church). The LDS church believes that this is training their boys to be leaders and to be led just as they will as LDS church members all their life and, for this reason, in addition to others, the BSA finds this totally acceptable.

 

Participation in the Scout units is part of the priesthood training in the LDS church. Until relatively recently, African-Americans were considered by the LDS church to bear the mark of Cain and were not eligible for certain levels of the priesthood. I would suspect that, for these reasons, it would have been considered inappropriate for African-American boys to be PLs and SPLs in training for those levels of the priesthood when they was ineligible because of race. It was not a matter that they could not be elected because there was no election. Rather, the selection was a "choice by God" and God would not have made that choice.

 

Sometime ago (1970s or 1980s, I believe) the Prophet in Salt Lake City had a revelation and African-Americans were eligible to become full members and fully participate in the priesthood.

 

Again, if I have said something incorrect, I hope that I will be corrected.

[scouter-mom]

While this post does not reply to BSA the racism inquiry, I thought I could add information to the LDS aspect of the previous post.

 

For what it is worth, I am a non-LDS member who serves an LDS chartered troop and crew (yes they have a team also, I just don't serve that unit this year).

 

The troop does hold elections for POR. Non LDS youth have served as SPL, ASPL, PL, APL, and so forth. We do have an African-American youth member (who is a member of the church).

 

Youth movement from one unit to another is determined by age if the youth is an LDS member. The non-LDS youth follow the BSA age/school grade guidelines.

 

The equivalent of of the NBP would be the Blazer program. Under LDS guidelines, LDS youth under the age of 12 are Blazers. They are not allowed to go on overnight campouts without their dad (or parent). My sons could go on overnights without my attendance when they were under 12.

 

IMHO, and limited experience (my sons and I have been with non-LDS units also, and I also serve at district level), our LDS units experience no more "bumps in the road" than any other unit. Also, every LDS unit (and ward, which is basically a congregation)is unique and different unto itself.

 

It is true that the SM (or Advisor) is selected by a devine method, including prayer. Sometimes we get someone with scouting experience. Sometimes we get someone who values training and seeks training out. We had one SM serve for 8 years, and did take the SM fundamentals. He understood BSA methods and guidelines.

 

Since the LDS church has chosen the BSA as the young men's program as their young men's program, they are expected to attend the necessary trainings and to follow G2SS and other BSA polices.

 

Our units have attended camps out of council and have checked in on the regular Sunday check in time. This has been accomplished by traveling on Saturday, camping over night in that area, attending an LDS service at the local LDS Church, and then proceeding to the camp. If our units were to attend our Council summer camp, they check in on Monday. Our weekend camping trips are from Friday evening to Saturday afternoon or evening. If at all possible, out units plan campouts around a three day weekend (school holiday on a Friday) and leave on Thursday (late afternoon/evening). Often there is a lot of adult support for this, with self-employed dads, or retired (scouters, registered with the unit)

men to accompany the youth.

 

Just thought I'd share my personal experience and knowledge of LDS scout units.

[Hourman]

Wow, Scouter-mom, a Non-LDS Leader of an LDS troop. Have I got some questions for you!

 

First, though, let me say that I have very little knowledge of LDS beliefs or practices. My suburban east coast council has 2 LDS troops in 2 different districts. They tend to keep to themselves and not participate in district or council level activities. Also, my son camped adjacent to the Utau National Parks Council at Jamb05. (subcamp 20, the "overflow" camp) According to him, most of those kids were LDS and when they were away from their Scoutmasters you would never guess they were any different from any other kids. If a Scoutmaster was nearby, however, they were uncomfortable socializing outside of their own group. The Scoutmasters themselves, he says, were "humorless, overbearing, stuffed shirts". So much for seeing things through the eyes of a 14 year old.

 

Question 1. - Is your situation typical or even common? Or are you an exception to the general rule?

 

 

Question 2. - Are you really comfortable with both your son and yourself belonging to a unit which practices double standards? One set of rules for LDS members and another set of rules for non LDS?

 

 

Question 3. - Can you comment on a widely held belief that the LDS Church leadership has threatened to pull all of its kids out of BSA and start a different program of their own if BSA ever changes its policy of not allowing openly gay members?

 

 

Question 4. - I've been using the term "LDS" because all of the previous posters did. Is the term "Mormon" no longer politically correct?

[scouter-mom]

Hourman, I will do my best to address your questions. Before I begin in that direction, I would like to clarify my role with these units. When someone says "leader" I think of the program side of the units. I serve on the committe side of these units. I have attended campouts, though, as have other LDS moms in our units.

 

Q-1: I am not aware of a non-LDS parent in our district who has taken on the responsibility of registering as a scouter with a LDS unit. However, I am sure that there are many who do so throughout our country. So, I do not believe that I am an "exception to the general rule."

 

In our units, there are LDS parents who appear to think that the church should supply everything, including leaders and other volunteers for their son's units. I have frequently heard our LDS scouters bemoan this. Because I am willing to step up and assist where I can, the adult infra-structure has seemingly been pleased to have me aboard.

 

In the next district over, a friend of mine who is LDS, belongs (with her sons and her husband) to an outside (of LDS chartered) troop. In her ward (congregation)the unit seemed to be more of a paper unit with the attitude of letting the boys play basketball for the duration of troop meetings. (hmmm....a sports oriented venturing crew opportunity?)

She and her husband are WB graduates, serve on the WB staff, serve at the council level and Lodge. I don't think it is a problem for them. This is a thoughtful, caring, giving and reverent family.

 

Q-2. "Double standards." Double standards seem to be all over the place. I am certain that there are many units (whoever their chartering organizations are) who are meticulous in following BSA guidelines and policies. Having also served as UC, ADC, DC and now District Advancement Chair, I have seen many non-LDS units who practice double standards and short-cut BSA policies. (Which reflects often in the unit's adult leaders lack of training and hurts the program supplied to their youth members.)

 

If by double standards, you are referring to the need to meet age requirements for unit membership (typically CS and transition to BS, but also as a team and crew member)as well as the Blazer program.....that has been agreed to with National. I don't consider that to be a double standard. I consider that to be an accommadation (religion-wise).

 

An experienced (WB staffer) member of BSA and a member of our CO has told me that I could serve as an ASM. I don't believe that I would be eligible (via the CO) for the position of SM. I don't take that personally, that is the right of any CO. I can serve the unit(s) in other ways. Hey, as long as there are other units available for the youth in the area, CO's can restrict membership. We have two Christian based COs who restrict membership in their units. In one the joining members must declare that Jesus Christ is their savior. In the second, specifically "Mormans" are not welcomed. How scoutly (NOT). But, when I asked (at district and council level) about the BSA policy in these restrictions, I was told that Chartering Organizations can do that as long as other units exist in that area to serve others.

 

Now, I have observed occasions where LDS scouting adults have attempted to transport BSA youth without a tour permit on file, claiming that the transport is covered by (LDS) church insurance, as it is also a church activity. Other LDS moms have joined me in putting their foot down on this. Besides, if the youth accomplish skills that count toward their BSA advancement on such an outing, if there is not a tour permit on file, and one is using the church for insurance, then those skills don't count at that time and cannot be signed off (right?), I mean, then it appears to me that it is no longer a scouting activity but it is a church activity. In truth, we have put our foot down because the tour permits covers us appropriately.

 

Q-3. I have never heard that the "LDS Church Leadership has threatened to pull all of its kids our of BSA and start a different program of their own if BSA ever changes its policy of not allowing openly gay members". I have no idea, but I doubt it. As a CO, they determine who their registered adults are.

 

I would suspect, that if your understanding is correct, that many would enroll their boys in non LDS chartered units. That's just my humble guess, though.

 

I can say that I have had many discusions with many LDS members: friends, fellow scouters, members of the church, and a DE. Similar to "free will" , their church addresses "free assignment" as to the choices one makes. You make your choices and there are consequences, some small, some large, some pleasant, some not.

 

I can also remember when we had two brothers with two moms. The moms were not registered adult scouts. Their boys were welcomed. The other moms (of youth in the unit) referred to the "second mom" as the first mom's room-mate, and positively commented on how well she related to those boys. No one got their knickers in a twist....or second guessed their relationship.

 

Q-4: LDS vs Morman. I don't consider either politically incorrect. I do not know what the LDS Church view point is on that. I do not consider "Morman" to be disrespectful. Mormans are members of the Church of Latter Day Saints, hence LDS. My LDS friends and scouters often use the term "Morman".

 

In closing, I would like to add that my boys did visitthe other local troop before joining the LDS unit. A point in time came where the three of us (sons and self) visited other units and transferred to one a couple of towns over. That lasted less than two years. There are problems and conflicts and disappointments (and double standards) in many units. We decided that our original unit had more positive merits for our family and our journey in scouting.

 

YIS, S-M

 

PS, I think we are way, way off of the BSA racism topic. I am going to read the forum thread that Boleta mentioned.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Hi Scouter-Mom

Thanks for all of that information. Very interesting.

 

I've heard the story about the LDS Church threatening to leave as well. I've seen it mentioned on more than one website, but so far I haven't been able to find much in the way of a "traditional media" reference to it yet. In 2000, Time magazine qouted a LDS church member who was also a member of the BSA Advisory Council as saying that if the BSA allowed gay membership, the LDS church would "pull its charter membership".

 

It just seems to be me that the BSA always plays the differences between Scouting policy and LDS actions as an "accomodation" they've made to allow the LDS boys to participate. But, it seems like the LDS has been allowed to make basic structural changes in how packs and troops are set up, how leaders are designated, and go against not only BSA policy but American social policy in its treatment of blacks. Those would seem to be fairly drastic allowances. And if they are correct, they would seem to give the appearance that BSA is fairly desperate to keep the LDS "in the fold". It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the LDS had turned out to be a "pro gay" organization.

[Hourman]

Scouter Mom,

Thank you for your insight into a scouting subgroup which we've all heard about but few have experienced personally.

 

Prarie Scouter,

Can you tell me which Time 2000 issue that quote appeared in? This theory has been talked about for years, but I've never seen any actual documentation.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I had pulled 3 articles from the Time archives. I don't have them in front of me right now, but my notes say that they were from April 26, May 1, and June 28 of 2000. Should be in one of those.

[Prairie_Scouter]

So, I guess, a couple of questions...

 

One, have we pretty well established that LDS Scout units did discriminate against blacks at some point in the past?

 

Two, why didn't BSA just say "no"?

[OldGreyEagle]

"Two, why didn't BSA just say "no"?"

 

PS. not sure, but here are a few other more global questions.

 

1. Why weren't women allowed to vote until the 19th Amendment was passed?

 

2. Why did it take federal legislation in the 60's to

guarantee every citizen was entitled to "Civil

Rights"

 

3. Why did it take Jackie Robinson to break the color

barrier in Baseball in 1947

 

Perhaps in the past the composition of the BSA, paid and volunteers alike reflected the values of society, just as they do today

[Prairie_Scouter]

OGE, all very good points, and certainly relevent. I certainly hope that your conclusion is correct as well, although one has to wonder exactly which set of values we're hoping to reflect

[GernBlansten]

A few posts ago, it was mentioned that some COs require membership to accept Jesus as their personal savior.

Obviously, BSA has some national membership policies that COs must follow, like non-discrimination by race, mandatory discrimation of athiests and gays, non-discrimination of women in leadership roles.

Aside from the LDS (I'm not sure how they fit into the grand scheme of traditional BSA units), are COs given a great deal of latitude to set their own membership requirements like the personal savior one as long as they follow the national policies too?