Venture Crew Relationship Question

[ScoutmasterBradley]

Thanks for all the feedback, opinions, and facts here...however the more I've look into this issue, the more questions I have.

 

I have two young men in my crew - one is a 19 year old youth member (and a vice president in the crew), the other is a 22 year old associate advisor (and one of the best adult leaders our crew has). While at Scouting events these two follow all the rules for youth protection and fulfill their roles wonderfully. However these two young men also attend the same college and are roommates (they share a house with 4 other guys).

 

There is nothing romantic or sexual about their relationship; but they are friends. They hang out on Saturday nights, eat meals on campus together, and may occasionally go to the movies or other places. By the BSA definition of fraternization ("the formation of peer-based, social relationships between adult and youth members") they are breaking the rules. How do I address this? Do I have to ask one of them to leave the crew? Do I ask these two adults to stop being friends?

[Twocubdad]

"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad, obnoxious, or unjust laws so effective as their strict execution." -- U.S. Grant

 

Excellent strategy, SMB.

 

(And thanks to Merlyn for the quote.)

[qwazse]

Boy, SMB, your crew must be cesspool of broken morale, envy, and divisiveness! You have one youth currying favors with your adult leaders via shared housing and another will soon do so via declaration of marriage. No doubt your other venturers feel marginalized.

 

Any chance these guys want to transfer to Pittsburgh? I'm feeling a little burnt out, and my kids could use examples like these.

[BadenP]

SMB

 

I gotta tell you, you really are making mountains out of molehills here. Our crew have had three incidents of so called fraternization and all three were dealt with amicably with no disruption of the crew. Start treating these adults as adults instead of kids, which too many crew leaders do,explain the situation as you see it, and you may be surprised what they come up with as possible solutions. That is one reason IMO why many SM's make lousy crew advisors, they can never seem to get out of that "boy scout mentality" and run their crews like troops, which is a recipe for disaster.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Basementdweller]

this has got to be the most ignorant conversation I have ever seen.....

 

The guys are best friends.....Hang together year round......

 

Your gonna make one of them resign from venturing..........

 

Of course they can't share a tent...but should both be allowed to follow the ypt guidelines and remain members...

 

 

My friend you should resign not the youth.....Leaders make the tough decisions....I would go to bat with the COR and IH for both examples you cite to keep the youth and young adults in the program.....

 

You have a great program and are simply to blinded by rules to see it....

[qwazse]

you should resign not the youth

 

For what? Putting up straw men?

 

If SMB is like this Advisor, he's gunning for retirement. His only problem is that his potential replacements keep tripping over the fraternization boundary! This advisor would love to have that problem.

 

How bout this: Keep everything as above board as possible. Nobody resigns/suspends membership until asked. If suspended, someone discovers there is life outside BSA. (Life, you know, that thing we've been training them for? Where they might actually make more $/hour than camp staff?) Everybody grows.

[koolaidman]

Seems to me for both issues the following facts are stipulated:

 

1. Fraternization between "youth" & "adults" is/will be occuring.

 

2. BSA liturature characterizes this fraternaization as inappropriate. (per the link SMB gave).

 

3. You can't feign ignorance, you received the email.

 

4. Some folks don't agree with BSA literature.

 

 

What defense do you have if a third party decides to report it to the SE?

 

What would you do as SE, given the current climate and recent release of the perversion files?

 

What would you do as SE even if the COR, CO and IH thought it was OK?

 

How would you feel if a young scouter was banned from scouting because you didn't make sure things were OK with the SE?

 

I'm betting the SE will see it in more black and white than others.

 

Another small question/point to add fuel to the fire:

The last sentence of the first paragraph, the future scouter asks if he will have to either "end our relationship" or "have one of us leave Scouting for the next year-and-a-half"

 

Would this young man seriously end the relationship over this?

I'm not a brain scientist, but that seems to be a whole nother ball of worms that may need to be ironed out.

 

 

 

 

[ScoutmasterBradley]

I guess the whole flaw in the BSA policy/logic is that they say "the formation of peer-based, social relationships between adult and youth members is not permitted."

 

However, what type of relationship should a 20-year-old and a 22-year-old-have besides a peer-based, social relationship? They are peers! Yes, the BSA draws a line at 21 for who can participate in the program, but being born 18-months apart does not change one's peer group.

 

I would be more concerned (not only from a youth protection standpoint, but also from a social health and development standpoint) with a 20-year-old BSA youth member (but legal adult) hanging out with a bunch of 14-year-old BSA youths members (and legal minors) in the capacity of a "peer-based, social relationship" than I would with the 20-year-old "youth" having a peer-based, social relationship with a 22-year-old associate advisor.

[JMHawkins]

The last sentence of the first paragraph, the future scouter asks if he will have to either "end our relationship" or "have one of us leave Scouting for the next year-and-a-half"

 

Would this young man seriously end the relationship over this?

I'm not a brain scientist, but that seems to be a whole nother ball of worms that may need to be ironed out.

 

I think folks are missing the rhetorical questions here. I don't think SMB asked "Do I ask these two adults to stop being friends?" because he was seriously considering doing that. He asked (SMB, please confirm!) that basically absurd question to demonstrate how absurd the rule is.

 

Same (I hope) with the Groom-to-be asking if he needs to end his relationship with his fiancee in order to remain in Scouting. Of course the choice - if he has to make one - will be to drop out of Scouting instead of ending the relationship, but he's posing the question to illustrate that the rule is broken.

 

The actual, full implied form of the original question is something like this:

 

"Gee, BSA, it seems like we have three choices: 1) We can break off our engagement and end our relationship, 2) One or both of us can resign from Scouting, or 3) we can ignore/violate/get a waiver from your 'no fraternization' rule. Well, BSA, you can't possibly think we'd consider #1, so the options are #2 or #3. Ball's in your court, BSA. Which do you want? Should we resign, or do you want to change the rules?"

 

There is no 4th choice. There are a few flavors of #3, running from "ignore the stupid rule" to "get special permission ahead of time" all the way to "change the rule so nobody else has to deal with this" but they all amount to not following the current rule as written.

 

I think most of us are arguing about which version of #3 is best, which is as it should be.

[qwazse]

The other take is that engagements are family-based relationships.

 

But, if someone my age had made a proposals to a 19 year old, I'd probably not to have him/her on the roster!

[Backroads]

Having seen very similar situations in both your BSA camp setting and your standard crew...

 

1. Camp thing: In my experience, let 'em share a married couples' cabin. I've seen it time and time again with 21+ and not-quite-21 couples--without any drama over anyone turning them in. Seems the marriage rule does indeed trump any others in that scenario. I could be dead wrong in my advice, but I've yet to see anything go wrong there.

 

2. I agree, this will be a variation on #3, though I'm not opposed to a simple "have one of them drop out of the unit". If marriage would be the trump in the standard crew, it would only begin at marriage.

[qwazse]

So, we're telling the kids to move up the wedding date? If they tie the knot before the 1st day of summer camp, everything will be legit?

 

Heck, have the wedding at camp! On one level, I find this quite satisfying. Especially if the reception is at the skeet range. It'll give new meaning to "shotgun wedding."

[Backroads]

My favorite camp recently expanded its range... there would be plenty of room for everyone and their guns.

[5scoutmom]

My son is 22 and his girlfriend of 5 years is 20. He is now adult leadership and she is youth. They do not bunk or tent together on camping trips and neither would dream of doing so, although they are sexually active. My understanding is that married couples can bunk or tent together. My H tents, I do not so we don't share a sleeping space on trips. I bunk in a cabin with the female members and he camps out with the boys.

 

In this case, since their relationship is of longstanding nature and began when he was a youth member, I see no reason to end it or put it under deep cover. I believe that the rule was instituted to prevent older adult leaders from pursuing youth members, not to derail relationships that began when both parties were youths.

 

My son and his gf do not engage in PDAs. All of the members and their parents know they are a couple. Fortunately, in my opinion, marriage is at least another 5 years away and parenthood even farther.

[5scoutmom]

To answer the second part of the question, my son socializes with youth members, including my 16 and 18 year sons and the other boys. I expect him to act maturely and set a good example. These are kids who, for the most part, have been his younger brothers' friends for years and who know him.

 

I think the two young men who are best friends are fine. The older one should not show favoritism towards the younger at crew activities but clearly they are friends and the crew is another fun activity for them.

 

As I said before, the purpose of the rule is to prevent abuse of a younger person by an older person. I don't believe the purpose is to stifle or destroy normal and healthy relationships between people who are a few years apart in age. When I was 18, I met a co-worker who became my lifelong best friend. At the time she was 23. Should I not have become friends with her at the camp we worked at because she was over 21?