Convincing a Stubborn Scoutmaster to Start a Venture Crew

[acco40]

When I was a Scoutmaster, two of my assistants expressed an interest to meet with me and our Committee Chair on the topic of starting a Venturing Crew with members of our troop. I told them that unless they had boys who were over or close to aging out of the troop (18 yr of age) or wanted to admit females - what was the point? I believe in peer based patrols so although we didn't call them by New Scout, Regular and Venture patrols, that is essentially what they were. As such the Venture Patrol could organize patrol outings (spelunking, backpacking or whatever). I told them to knock themselves out but I didn't have an interest in being apart of a new unit.

 

From a Scoutmaster's point of view, a Venturing Crew can be seen as simply a poaching device to take the older boys away from his troop - i.e. his good SPL/ASPL candidates. I think one of the flaws many troop make, which drives away some of the older boys, is to try and do everything in troop fashion - having the 16 & 17 year olds doing the same activities as 10 & 11 year olds. That is a problem. The older boys should have more expertise, leeway, self direction and latitude in what they do within the confines of the troop. Not a different set of rules mind you, but different expectations.

[BadenP]

acco

 

The sad truth is that older boys are leaving scouts in droves without aging out. If Venturing will keep them in scouting then why not, it's not poaching it is just another retention tool. By the time a boy reaches 16 he is pretty much done with boy scouts these days Eagle or no Eagle. His interests turn to girls and cars and in Venturing he can integrate both of them.

[acco40]

I agree completely. But if the desire is to have an all male Venturing Crew for boys under the age of 18 what is the point? Why not have a Venture Patrol and run the troop the way the BSA intended it to be run? That would help to alleviate the problem of having the older boys leave in droves.

 

Moving the age requirement back up to 12 would help too.

[John-in-KC]

Why start a Crew directly tied off to a Troop?

 

Do the interest inventories and start a Crew that has a common interest they want to explore deeper. I suspect you will find Boy Scouts who will want to join. I'm pretty sure you will find other young men and women who want to join as well.

 

I wish you success.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

"But if the desire is to have an all male Venturing Crew for boys under the age of 18 what is the point? Why not have a Venture Patrol and run the troop the way the BSA intended it to be run?"

 

Depends on the troop, here are the Top Ten from our field office in Wahoo, Nebraska.

10. FINALLY we can become a scout-run unit. No adults planning the same program year. Thankfully those adults reliving their boy scout days tend to stay back in boy scout troops (Oww, the truth hurts).

 

9. No Advancement Method. No adults on our back about badges. Have enough pressure with SATs, college entrance ... We learn, help, go on adventures, and have fun.

 

8. No attendance pressure. Fewer, BETTER meetings and outings. We can now do it all - School, Sports, Jobs, and Scouting without "participation penalties" (which of course are illegal)

 

7. No camp (and only camp) outing every month mentality. We decide our own interests and plan activities accordingly to fit our schedule.

 

6. More fun to be in a small group of similar age, interests who want to be there than a large troop of 11-18 year olds who mostly don't want to be there. Have not met a Venturer yet whose parents made him/her join.

 

5. At MOOTs, Quests, etc., we give adults something to do - usually training. It can be anything really - "Survival tootbrush - Fraser fir or Balsam fir?" add free coffee and a patch and you can keep them busy for hours. Meanwhile we are COPE, rock climbing, or shotgun shooting.

 

4. Easier on adults who want to help, i.e., it is far easier to become a Venture consultant than a Boy Scout merit badge counselor.

 

3. We can shoot pistols.

 

2. No more little kids.

 

and number 1

1. Girls

 

A collection of penny thoughts, not entirely from me, so ring it up $.10

[bacchus]

Nice summary Schiff. I will have to print that and share it.

[sherminator505]

"But if the desire is to have an all male Venturing Crew for boys under the age of 18 what is the point? Why not have a Venture Patrol and run the troop the way the BSA intended it to be run?"

 

And if you feel that something separate is needed that meets this criterion, how about a Varsity Team?

[BadenP]

sherm

 

Read point #1 on schiff's list, thats why a team would not work, lol. It is a possibility however but Varsity is linked so closely to LDS scouting that it is largely ignored outside that arena.

[sherminator505]

One caution - a Venturing crew or Varsity team springing forth from a Troop can very easily take on the appearance and emotional trappings of a schism, no matter how well-intentioned.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[bacchus]

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Resources/ThreeWaysVarsity.aspx

 

It sounds like you already have your mind made up about Varsity, but here are some ways it can be used.

[sherminator505]

"It sounds like you already have your mind made up about Varsity, but here are some ways it can be used."

 

Okay. I'm not sure where you're coming from, exactly, but okay...

[bacchus]

Sorry, that was taken the wrong way I was referring to Baden, but he makes a good point that if you want a co-ed unit, Varsity is not the way to go.

 

Also Sherm I agree that suddenly attempting to start up a new older-youth unit from the existing unit could sure look like some of the troop organization are "splitting up".

[acco40]

If a troop is not being run correctly, I'd rather see the troop fixed as opposed to starting another unit. I know that it can be difficult if everyone is not on-board but still, my preference would be to fix up the building, not create a new one.

 

 

But if the desire is to have an all male Venturing Crew for boys under the age of 18 what is the point? Why not have a Venture Patrol and run the troop the way the BSA intended it to be run?

 

10. FINALLY we can become a scout-run unit. No adults planning the same program year. Thankfully those adults reliving their boy scout days tend to stay back in boy scout troops (Oww, the truth hurts). Fix the troop. That is not the intent of how a troop should run. The PLC should be running the annual planning.

 

9. No Advancement Method. No adults on our back about badges. Have enough pressure with SATs, college entrance ... We learn, help, go on adventures, and have fun. Somewhat legit but advancement exists in Crews, but I don't believe it is a method. Troop Scouters should counsel Scouts about advancement but if that gets to an annoyance level for the boys, something is amiss. If it is coming from the parents, can't help there.

 

8. No attendance pressure. Fewer, BETTER meetings and outings. We can now do it all - School, Sports, Jobs, and Scouting without "participation penalties" (which of course are illegal) As you pointed out, troops may have attendance expectations but not requirements or penalties.

 

7. No camp (and only camp) outing every month mentality. We decide our own interests and plan activities accordingly to fit our schedule. One of the things a Venture Patrol should work on during troop meetings is their special patrol outings.

 

6. More fun to be in a small group of similar age, interests who want to be there than a large troop of 11-18 year olds who mostly don't want to be there. Have not met a Venturer yet whose parents made him/her join. That is why I like NSPs and peer based patrols and not a 16 yr old PL with a 14 yr old APL and 11 & 12 year old patrol members.

 

5. At MOOTs, Quests, etc., we give adults something to do - usually training. It can be anything really - "Survival tootbrush - Fraser fir or Balsam fir?" add free coffee and a patch and you can keep them busy for hours. Meanwhile we are COPE, rock climbing, or shotgun shooting. Scouts can and should plan out thier troop and patrol outings. Heck, only in a troop can you camp with NO adults (it's called a patrol outing).

 

4. Easier on adults who want to help, i.e., it is far easier to become a Venture consultant than a Boy Scout merit badge counselor. I'll pass on this one.

 

3. We can shoot pistols. I can concede on this one.

 

2. No more little kids. Again, plan your outings the way you want them.

 

and number 1

1. Girls Violates the assumption, but yes, if that is the goal go for it. I tried to recruit a bunch of 19 & 20 yr old SAs when I was Scoutmaster but the committee (mostly wives of the Scoutmasters) were not overly supportive of that idea.

 

 

[Stosh]

Hmmm... I have 10 years experience as a Venturing Advisor, 20 years as SM/ASM in Boy Scouts, and 40 years experience with working with youth groups.

 

Except for the Girls and handguns, all the rest can be handled within the average troop. So if one is hammering on the SM to start a Venturing Crew, my vote would be leave him out of it. Go do your own thingy and good luck.

 

To stlhiker, try barking up a different tree. I'm with the stubborn SM on this one. Starting a Venturing crew isn't necessary.

 

"10. FINALLY we can become a scout-run unit. No adults planning the same program year. Thankfully those adults reliving their boy scout days tend to stay back in boy scout troops (Oww, the truth hurts)."

 

A properly run scout troop wouldn't have this problem. I don't have this problem in my troop. As a matter of fact, I have more problems with trying to get the boys to lead themselves than I do keeping adults out of the way. Without proper training, the semi-experienced adults will still run a better program than inexperienced youth.

 

"9. No Advancement Method. No adults on our back about badges. Have enough pressure with SATs, college entrance ... We learn, help, go on adventures, and have fun."

 

Yep, we ain't no MB Mill. The boys do the advancement they wish. If along the way they aren't having fun, they are breaking one of the troop rules! A lot of my boys like the advancement thingy, it gives them a sense of accomplishment that they control at their own pace. Sometimes leadership, i.e. leading others, requires more than worrying about one's self, i.e. SAT's college, etc.

 

"8. No attendance pressure. Fewer, BETTER meetings and outings. We can now do it all - School, Sports, Jobs, and Scouting without "participation penalties" (which of course are illegal)"

 

Family, church, and school are all higher priorities than Scouting and my boys don't seem to miss many meetings/outings. Those priorities held for both troop and crew. Attendance was pretty much the same between both groups.

 

"7. No camp (and only camp) outing every month mentality. We decide our own interests and plan activities accordingly to fit our schedule."

 

Yep, same for me. My boys planned out their activities and now that they didn't have anyone qualify for OA # of camping nights in 2 years, they are angry and putting in more than enough camp outings for next year. Sometimes when given enough rope, they'll actually hang themselves. It goes along with the old adage, "Be careful of what you wish for."

 

"6. More fun to be in a small group of similar age, interests who want to be there than a large troop of 11-18 year olds who mostly don't want to be there. Have not met a Venturer yet whose parents made him/her join."

 

Yep, no adult (including SM) says who is in what patrol. The older patrols have their activities focused on their interests and the younger boys plan their activities. We call it the patrol-method and it works just fine. By the way, my newest Eagle Scout has requested to be the new scout patrol's TG. Not everyone is focused only on one's self interests.

 

"5. At MOOTs, Quests, etc., we give adults something to do - usually training. It can be anything really - "Survival tootbrush - Fraser fir or Balsam fir?" add free coffee and a patch and you can keep them busy for hours. Meanwhile we are COPE, rock climbing, or shotgun shooting."

 

Yeah, I hear ya. It's a full time job as adults in our troop to make sure the boys don't hang out at the campsite and miss out on all that fun.

 

Adult contingent at summer camp last week:

 

SM - Cub, Webelos, Boy Scout Venturing and WB trained - 20 years scout leadership, 40 years youth group leadership. Has taught U of Scouting, SM fundamentals, and Webelos outdoor training.

ASM - Eagle with palms - 7 years SM experience, WB this summer.

ASM - Eagle just turned 18, SM training this spring, WB this summer.

 

Not much the leaders need to learn, but I did spend the week learning about any and all wild flowers I found around the camp (Learned about 30 new ones) and the three adults were the only ones to see the International Space Station fly over while working on constellation identification. Adults can have just as much fun as the boys and in many cases, actually have more fun than the boys.

 

"4. Easier on adults who want to help, i.e., it is far easier to become a Venture consultant than a Boy Scout merit badge counselor."

 

Not if you know what your doing.... It is obvious that anyone making that statement doesn't know much about the training and qualifications necessary for a successful program. If one thinks that all they need is an adult lacky that will let the crew run wild, then yes, that statement will hold up everywhere except in court.

 

"3. We can shoot pistols."

 

Yep, that'll get the kids knocking down the doors to sign up. Of course, that's a biased sarcastic remark, but may hold up if one has an inner-city troop where a walking stick and buck knife might not be sufficient gear to hike with.

 

"2. No more little kids."

 

Spoken like a person who knows little or nothing about true leadership. Only a ego-centric personality will ignore the fact that the age difference between 11 and 18 (troop) is somehow not the same as 14 and 21 (crew).

 

"and number 1

1. Girls "

 

One will find that this isn't as big of a deal than what adults think. Not many guys want gals to compete on a level playing field with them. And if one has girls in the group who have more attraction ideas than the crew's interest specialty, one is just begging for a major headache along the way.

 

I have had been involved with co-ed groups for over 40 years now. It's not that big of a deal as what adults have been lead to believe. Boys are attracted to girls not because they need to be part of their group, but because they wish to date and Friday and Saturday (two scouting prime times) conflict with those opportunities. It's nothing more than adolescent prioritizing. Let's see: Get the car and take a girl for pizza and the movies OR go hang out camping with the guys that I see everyday at school. If you take more than .5 seconds to decide that one, you obviously never were a male teenager.

 

So, as far as convincing the stubborn scoutmaster? Don't bother. Just go off and start your own crew. The fallacy of one's whole premise of having the SM involved means that some miraculous transformation will occur in the mind of the SM when he puts on a dark green shirt. Well guess again. All he'll do is run the crew like he does the troop. You will be disappointed and everyone will quit for the same reasons they want to quit the troop. And if one is planning on running a competitive crew, why would anyone think it remotely possible to get his blessing?

 

I'm thinking one hasn't thought this through very well. I'm thinking the SM has enough been-there-done-that experience to see through hassles that are coming down the road in this situation.

 

Stosh

[RememberSchiff]

I collected those "Top Ten" reasons from talking with some male Venture Scouts who were former Boy Scouts. They mentioned more than 10 reasons as I did not list uniform options and some others that I forgot.

 

As to acco40 points, there was a common complaint that their troops were not scout run and an honest assessment that there wasn't anything they could do about it other than leave. Luckily, they did not leave scouting.

 

I am glad Stosh has a "scout run" troop, but to follow-up on some his comments.

 

4. Easier on adults who want to help, i.e., it is far easier to become a Venture consultant than a Boy Scout merit badge counselor.

 

"Not if you know what your doing.... It is obvious that anyone making that statement doesn't know much about the training and qualifications necessary for a successful program. If one thinks that all they need is an adult lacky that will let the crew run wild, then yes, that statement will hold up everywhere except in court."

 

Their comment was not about Venture advisors but about Venture consultants. They are correct. The BSA makes it much easier to become/recruit Venture consultants than Boy Scout merit badge counselors. I think as Boy Scouts, some of them had to venture outside their district in search of merit badge counselors, so that was where they were coming from.

 

3. We can shoot pistols.

"Yep, that'll get the kids knocking down the doors to sign up. Of course, that's a biased sarcastic remark, but may hold up if one has an inner-city troop where a walking stick and buck knife might not be sufficient gear to hike with."

 

Hard to believe, some scouts prefer pistols over walking sticks. Maybe they were denied water pistols in Cub Scouts. Anyway, follow a Crew to three gun competition or cowboy shoot and you can understand their interest.

 

2. No more little kids.

 

"Spoken like a person who knows little or nothing about true leadership. Only a ego-centric personality will ignore the fact that the age difference between 11 and 18 (troop) is somehow not the same as 14 and 21 (crew)."

 

I don't think so. Most of these Venture scouts had been den chiefs and NSP PL's so from their perspective they had done that challenge (leading 10-12 yr olds); it was now time to move on to bigger leadership challenges in older age groups capable of more intense outdoor activities. They are growing to lead men.

 

My $0.02

 

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)