Convincing a Stubborn Scoutmaster to Start a Venture Crew

[stlhiker]

Any tips for convincing a stubborn scoutmaster that having a venture crew is a good idea?

 

 

Thanks

[Eagle92]

'hiker,

Do you mean Venture Crew as in older scout patrol and is now called a Venture Patrol, or are you referring to Venturing Crew which is a separate organized unit that is coed? Not tryin to be nitpicky about language, as usually I know what folks are talking about, but in this case I need that info and details to help.

[Gary_Miller]

I don't see why you have to convince the SM. If the CO wants to charter a VC and they have the leadership available to do so then they should just go ahead and do it. Its not the SM decision to make.

[moosetracker]

We had a Venture crew started badly. The majority of the troop would have been fine, had they been a seprate entity. But, they just up and started, wanted to meet on different nights & be co-ed, but demanded the Troop leadership be involved & that they be the ones to take the older boys "off-our-hands"..

 

It is very important that you either start up with troop(s) in the area, not seeing it as a hassel or a threat. The troop did finally kill the Venture program, by just doing nothing with it, for it.. And by having the parents from the troop, not back their sons if they wanted to jump.. "Go, but find a ride 'cause I wont take you, and no I will not be a leader"..

 

I did not want to see the Venture Crew die out, but, I also had to side with the troop that their tactics of forceing and demanding, and trying to steal scouts was totally wrong on their side.

 

If you are trying to just create a Venture crew of older scouts that is still part of the troop..

a) the older boys should want the change. And they should discuss why they think this will keep them more interested.

b) the Adult leadership in the troop should be solid enough that you are not just putting more work on the SM. You should have adult leaders who are willing to take this on.

c) Try to work with SM and make sure you can address all his concerns.

d) Could the mentoring positions of the Venture get some of the crew to work with the adult leaders in positions like treasurer, outdoor leader, Advancement? The adults get help in their positions and get to be mentors, the boys get to learn the positions. The Troop gets more help in organizing the troop, rather then seeing it as more of a drain on the adult leadership they currently have.

 

If you want to add girls, to the crew that is part of the troop. The co-ed aspect of the program may be enough of a worry, that you may need to seperate. But if you have Female leaders willing to step up to be advisors, you can try to work out the concerns of the SM..

 

If you are trying to be seperate. Then like others said you can just start a new group. But, be careful not to demand participation from the troop leaders, and any boys from the troop you get you should try hard to keep then co-registered and co-active in both units.. Maybe offer help on an eagle project or two.. The SM/troop will slowly warm to you if you can prove yourself a good neighbor. They may slowly come around, but at least they wont put up roadblocks..

 

I can tell you our Troop leaders see that rule that lets Ventures take the older scouts and complete their Eagle scout award after first class as a threat. Add to that the the women starting it came in and promoted it to the boys as "no more working with young kids, girls, No uniforms, only twice a month, and we will get you to Eagle, you don't need the Troop at all." Troops depend on their older boys to be role models for the younger boys.

 

I think our troop is hoping to start the Ventures again, but they are waiting for everyone that was in the troop from the first attempt to move on.

 

I am passing on suggestion I heard.. to these statements, some Venture people replied "No, we don't have to, why should we bend backward for the troop."

 

One Venture person commented well to these statements. And address the Venture people who did not like these suggestions. "We are the new, struggling minority in the BSA program.. If we don't make friends, we can easily be crushed. It makes good sense to tread softly.."

 

Currently our district has less then 10 Venture program. Some troop ones are doing ok, but are really not true Venture progams but an older Boy scouting group.. Those who are on their own seem to be struggling. My feeling is until the Venture program can prove they are a help and not a threat, until they can win over the old fashioned leadership in the troops.. They will continue to be small and struggling.

[Gary_Miller]

moosetracker, what you discribed is a venture patrol with in the troop. Not a Venture Crew.

 

A crew is a totally seprate unit from the troop. A crew has their own program altogether. A crew does not need a troop to be successful. On the other hand a crew can be a plus to other scouting units if allowed to. Crew usually have more experienced and mature youth involved, who are usually more than willing to step up to the plate and serve.

[moosetracker]

No I was describing both.. Since he wants to convince a SM to accept it, can you say he is not trying to form it within the troop?

 

The top suggestions are for a Crew or Patrol that is part of a troop.. The bottom suggestions are for a Crew separate from the troop.

 

I may not know about what you call Venture patrols (as they dont need their adult leaders to get Venture training).. But I do know about Venture Crews that are run in a troop, the boys may form a Venture patrols except they register separate as a crew of the same charter org as the troop.. When they do, they need to register some committee members & crew advisors (which sometimes are the same as the SM & the troop committee members).. I also know because they do this they could go for venture awards (but they normally dont) and they could work different positions with the committee members being their adult mentors (some do, some dont).

The one we had was separate, and then when they started to fail they wanted to become a Crew as described above. But, the troop had had their fill of them, so they went under.

As far as I have seen, age can vary in both.. from 13 to 21.. I have seen some very mature patrols running from event to event at a Spring or Fall camporee. They are usually hysterical, because they act like big kids, but still can carry it off with more polish..

 

[ScoutNut]

A Venture Patrol is simply a different patrol within a Boy Scout Troop (ie: New Scout, Dragons, Venture). This patrol is only for older Boy Scouts, and usually focuses on high adventure. Often a Venture Patrol will not have a permanent membership, but will consist of the Scouts who are interested in what ever event/activity is coming up next.

 

A Venturing Crew is a separately chartered unit that has it's own program, focus, uniform, awards, and can be co-ed. They are NOT Boy Scouts. They are Venturers.

 

A Venturing Crew is not, and should not be created to be, part of a Boy Scout Troop (as stated above they are NOT Boy Scouts). Doing that cheats the youth out of the real Venturing program.

 

Start a Venture, or High Adventure, Patrol in your Troop instead.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[Gary_Miller]

moosetracker "No I was describing both.. Since he wants to convince a SM to accept it, can you say he is not trying to form it within the troop?"

 

I can only suppose that since he said "Venture Crew". That they are wanting to form a separate unit since that is what a Venture Crew is. I would guess it with in the same CO as the troop and the SM is against it because he is afraid the Venture Crew will pull some of the older scouts away from the troop program.

 

moosetracker "The top suggestions are for a Crew or Patrol that is part of a troop.. The bottom suggestions are for a Crew separate from the troop."

 

A crew is never part of a troop. A "Venture Patrol" is part of the troop and if done correctly uses the "Vasity Team" program, high adventure.

 

moosetracker "I may not know about what you call Venture patrols (as they dont need their adult leaders to get Venture training).."

 

A venture patrol is a patrol for the older boys in the troop it focuses on high adventure activities. See the SM handbook for more information.

 

moosetracker "But I do know about Venture Crews that are run in a troop, the boys may form a Venture patrols except they register separate as a crew of the same charter org as the troop.."

 

Venture Crews are always a stand alone unit and never part of the troop. Although a CO may have charter a Venture Crew as well as a Scout Troop or a Varsity Team.

 

moosetracker "When they do, they need to register some committee members & crew advisors (which sometimes are the same as the SM & the troop committee members).."

 

A Venture Crew has a Crew Advisor and its own committee which functions more as program advisors to the youth in leadership positions.

 

moosetracker "I also know because they do this they could go for venture awards (but they normally dont)"

 

A well ran Venture Crew focuses on venturing awards. Which are very detailed and take some work to accomplish. And while any youth who has earned 1st Class Scout can work towards his eagle usually in a crew he is on his own. Thats why I suggest any youth working on Eagle also duel enroll in a scout troop as well.

 

moosetracker "and they could work different positions with the committee members being their adult mentors (some do, some dont)."

 

A well ran crew has the youth fully in charge "Driving the Car" with adult advisors giving advise from the sidelines.

 

moosetracker "The one we had was separate,"

 

As they should be.

 

moosetracker "and then when they started to fail they wanted to become a Crew as described above. But, the troop had had their fill of them, so they went under."

 

That would be patrol not crew.

 

Of course they went under since it sounds like it was improperly organized from the beginning.

 

moosetracker "As far as I have seen, age can vary in both.. from 13 to 21.."

 

A crew is usually 14 through 20 year old youth. Although there was a recent change for grade level. I think it 14 or graduated the eight grade.

 

moosetracker "I have seen some very mature patrols running from event to event at a Spring or Fall camporee. They are usually hysterical, because they act like big kids, but still can carry it off with more polish.."

 

A patrol is in a troop and can not have anyone older than 17. Once they turn 18 they can no longer be a Boy Scout.

 

What you probably saw at the camporee was a Venture Crew. Although it could of been a "Venture Patrol" made up of the older boys in the troop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Well then Crews around here are run "in your opinion" wrong. There is one just up the street from our troop that is doing pretty good. They are registered as a "Crew" within same charter organization.. Their Scoutmaster is also the Advisor.. One of the committee members for this Crew is the one who does our Venture training for our district, and he also ran our Venturing roundtable for a while. From him I know at least 2 other troop/crews in our district this way. The one I know well hold their crew meetings with the troop, they are a patrol, they have boys that stay till they reach 21, they do the positions, not the awards. They tried to bring in girls, but could not find a female advisor in order to substain it, so that didn't work out. They wear their own Venture patrol shirt.

 

When in a different district visiting troops we saw two troops that had a Venture "Crews" in their troop. Boys/Girls over 18 still in with the patrol, they had different venturing shirts, but they met with the troop, and took on the leadership of the younger boys. These were also the patrols I remember at the Spring/Fall camporees. I recognized the young people.

 

Differences for us of a Patrol & some of our Crews are if they register as a crew or they don't. The Crew in the troop get the extra's mentioned can stay until they reach 21, can take on different positions, can work for the awards, may become co-ed. Otherwise they are just like a Venture patrol..

 

Then we have the Venture crews who may have the same charter Org or not. But, run seprate from the troop, different advisors different Committee, different meeting nights.

 

Maybe YOUR district disallows a Crew to register if they are tied too closly with a troop. Our Council is just happy to get a Crew any way they can get a crew. In which case you are argueing with me on what can and cannot be happening in my council based on what is happening in your council.. Just know all councils are not running their Venture programs the same way as yours.

[bacchus]

Moose - "The troop did finally kill the Venture program, by just doing nothing with it, for it.. And by having the parents from the troop, not back their sons if they wanted to jump.. "Go, but find a ride 'cause I wont take you, and no I will not be a leader".."

 

Sounds kind of dirty.

 

Stlhiker, if you are trying to convince a stubborn scoutmaster to be a venturing adviser as well, you will most likely run into the same situation as moose. if you are trying to convince the stubborn scoutmaster to not necessarily be the adviser, but to give the crew his "blessing" with the committee, you are still in danger of running into the same problems.

 

You might instead want to get the older, former scouts and their parents together and start up a new committee and crew from scratch, and propose this to the CO. That way you aren't cutting into the SMs program, and you are actually using the venturing program how it was intended.

[rdclements]

Trying to convince a stubborn scoutmaster of anything is a waste of time.

 

Realize that Venturing is significantly different from boy scouting. Venturing Crews can cooperate with Troops for some activities, but to be successful, the crew needs to have an independent program that attracts and retains members on its own. I have encountered many scoutmasters and other troop-affiliated adults who considered a venturing crew a threat to their membership. The reverse is actually the case. If older scouts in the troop are ready to leave, they will. Retaining youth in the troop because they don't have anything else to do is a sign of a weak troop and poor leadership.

 

If you have a group of interested youth, and the required adults, start the unit, get trained, and let the youth do the program. Any scoutmaster who would stand in opposition to that should reexamine why he is involved in scouting in the first place.

[Eagle92]

When Venturing came out in in 1998, and Venture Crews in the troops became Venture Patrols, all kinds of confusion arose because of the similar sounding programs, as well as Venturing taking the designation of "Crew" and renaming of the group within the troop from "Crew" to "Patrol" that confusion was commented on prior to the rollout of the program, and we are still dealing with the confusion today, IMHO. hence the reason I asked for clarification in my first reply. Also as evidenced with a Venture patrols in my district and council using Venturing insignia on their patrol flags and on their boy scout uniforms.

 

I have seen a Venturing Crew arise from a troop. Long story short, the Venture Crew/Patrol leader wanted info on the Bronze, Gold, Silver, and Ranger awards, and wanted the patrol to work on them. He was confused by the changes until he sat down with the DE and had it explained to him. This young took the info back to his patrol, got them pumped up about Venturing, and took it to the SM and CC. The youth created bylaws that basically said, A)membership was restricted to Star, Life, Eagles, and ASMs under age 21, B) Primary responsibility of members was their work with the troop C)Crew would camp with troop and do assignments based upon their duties with the troop (we were using the Venture patrol on the old Leadership Corps model, so they were doign a lot of teaching) BUT camp separately from the patrols( already doing anyway, not quite Kudu's 100 yards, but enough that each patrol was on their own and close enough in an emergency) and D) the Crew would do one activity on their own per quarter.

 

It worked out quite well until Katrina casued alot of member of the troop and crew to move permanently.

[Eagle92]

Gary,

One point of clarification. Varsity Scouts orginally focused only on sports, not HA activities. Venture Crews, now called Venture Patrols were created for HA. The HA pins that can now be worn on the Varsity/Venture letter were orignally restricted to Venture Crews only, just as the sports pins were restricted to Varsity Teams only. Sometime around '95 or '96, those restrictions were removed, and Varsity teams could work onthe HA pins, and Venture Crews could work on Sports Pins.

 

On the BS side the pins were not popular, as evidenced by all the questions I got about the letter and pins because of a HA program I created based upon the pinsat camp. Also I never sold one when I worked for supply. And see that the Varsity/Venture letter is once again called the Varsity letter in the IG. From '84- 89 it was called the varsity letter, then '89- recently the IG had it labeled as the Varsity-Venture letter.

[shortridge]

To the question raised by the OP:

 

- If you're talking about a Venture Patrol, this decision shouldn't really be up to the Scoutmaster. If the PLC sees a need, it should form one. Venture Patrols are part and parcel of the troop and just provide another outlet for older Scouts within the current program.

 

- If you're talking about a Venturing Crew, this decision also shouldn't really be up to the Scoutmaster. A crew is independent of a troop, both in terms of membership and leadership. It's up to the CO and the interested youth to start one. There's a whole step-by-step outline on starting a crew in one of the manuals (the name escapes me), including a recommended interest survey of the potential youth members.

 

While in some cases, as moosetracker describes, a Venturing Crew may function in concert with an affiliated troop, that's really not the purpose of the Venturing program. Teaching and instruction is key to the program, of course.

 

=================

 

If the confusion in this thread doesn't clarify for National that Venture patrols should be re-named, I don't know what might.

[moosetracker]

bacchus - Yes there was vicious mud slinging from both sides of the camp before the Venture Crew died. But as people stated, troops can feel threatened. The troop started out having no problem with the Ventures forming when stated it was planned to be all female. They were definatly seprate from there program.

 

They found out that the Ventures decided to become co-ed. When the Advisor (who was troop outdoor coordinator) went to the troop meetings, pulled each boy who was of age aside personally and one by one, during the troop meeting and told them why they should dump the troop and join Ventures.

 

You never saw a troop see a Venture program as a threat to their program faster then when that happened.

 

Then she decided it was too much of an effort to plan seprate outings and she didn't have two-deep leadership either, so she planned the troop outings and had her Ventures tag along. She lost her outdoor position real quick and was almost booted from the troop entirely.

 

I will have to say the troop did improve their program to fend off her attempts also. The troop formed a Venture Patrol (the unregistered Ventures).. And gave the older boys some more activities so that they would stay. (Pissed her off, that they formed an internal Ventures to combat her external Ventures.)

 

Childish saying but approiate to say "She started it.", the troop just wasn't about to go down without a fight.

 

I always believed that if she had formed the Venture crew and sat down with the troop to create some bylaws (maybe different but like what Eagle92 mentioned, there would have been no issue..) Well maybe with her there would have.. Lets say if someone else had wanted a Venture crew and started it up working with the troop to make sure the two units were not going to compete, it would have had a different ending.

 

Some of you stated that you think Venture crews "Should" be totally seprate from the troops. This is fine, and probably in your neck of the woods that may be true. I even admire that you are successful with that.. Around here, the seperate Crew usually have a life span of about 3-5 years, struggling all the way. It would be nice to find some training program that might help this poor performance, but right now, the Adult Leaders of the seperate crews don't go to Basic training. So the forced Basic training will probably thin them out more, but help some of them that do take it. In our neck of the woods, the Crews that are part of a troop are more stable & stronger, and their leaders are more apt to take the Venture Basic training. Be that right or wrong, that is how the program is surviving here.