HELP! The STAR... what does it mean?

[MaineScouter]

"(An example of the "not a good idea" category, in my opinion, would be the CC being the sister of the SM. I almost fell off my chair when I read that they are TWINS -- not that that makes a difference once you know they are brother-sister, but it just makes the whole thing that much crazier. I am half-expecting MaineScouter's next post to involve the circus going through town and an an elephant stepping on the troop trailer...) "

 

No elephants but how about this, our CC's husband is our Council President... and BIL to our SM, of course. Step on one toe around here and you get the attention of the whole Council.

 

In the defense of the committee, we did discuss whether having the SM's (twin) sister as the CC would be a conflict of interest. In the end, no one else wanted the job and we went with it. She was the Pack CC for a number of years and had a lot of experience. So far it's been working. The response I get to the suggestion that we some BOR and SM conference training NOW will be the first "issue" that the committe has had to deal with, though.

 

We shall see.

 

[SR540Beaver]

I know that some people frown on having multiple family members in positions of responsibility within an organization. Let's keep in mind that Scouting is a family oriented organization and many units struggle to get enough volunteers to cover all of the bases. Many scouters take on multiple roles or have more than one family member in positions of responsibility out of necessity, not by choice. You'd think that with all of those parents out there, you could easily fill every position.......but we all know the reality of it, don't we?

[dsteele]

this web keeps getting more and more tangled.

 

I think we're all in agreement that the question and the judgement are out of line.

 

I also think it would be great for the Scout in question to be able to provide the answer to the Board of Review and able to fully document it -- which is why I await with some eagerness the answer from the National BSA Museum archivist -- who is researching it. Even he said it might be the middle of next week before he's able to provide an answer.

 

In the interim, I agree that the more serious problem of not following the policies, procedures and intent of the advancement portion of this thing we call Boy Scouting needs to be adressed, addressed well, and addressed swiftly.

 

DS

 

[firstpusk]

I am shocked by the delay in SM conferences. In my tenure as SM, I often had conferences with the boys that were formal even though they had not completed requirements for the next rank. This was especially true when they were not advancing. Kinda touch base. Let them give me a feel for what was going on. Sometimes there would be a reason and we had something to work with. The same with boards of review, although that was much more rare. We never viewed it as a high pressure testing situation. When I signed off on rank requirements, they were ready for the board.

 

One thing that is helpful is to get your hand on questions appropriate for board of review. Some troops will assemble examples. This can help with keeping the board on track. The other thing I would say is in an ideal world "Mr. Star" should not be asked to do another board and the boy should be given another board asap. An apology would be in order also.

[Twocubdad]

How about, "There is no meaning attached to the five points of the Star badge."

 

Short, concise and correct.

[MaineScouter]

"One thing that is helpful is to get your hand on questions appropriate for board of review. Some troops will assemble examples. [snip] "Mr. Star" should not be asked to do another board and the boy should be given another board asap. An apology would be in order also. "

 

The men on his board DO have a list of appropriate questions for a BOR for each rank. When my husband was CC he printed many off the internet and made them available to all Com members. They didn't bring them or use them. An apology?? Haahaahahaahahaahahahaa Sorry, but you don't know these guys. I'm "lucky" to be able to wear the uniform and call myself part of the Troop instead of being relagated to baking brownies for the next fund raiser. Can you say, "good ole boys?" The other only women in my Troop are the CC, Treasurer and Secretary and those are all new since May. I'm the only one that works directly with the boys in meetings, campouts, and as a MB counselor. I have more training than any other member of the Troop (my choice, by design). It's uncomfortable at times but I refuse to let them drive me out by their attitudes. Boys need good female role models as well.

 

I AM pushing for a change in the SM conference and BOR procedures. In addition to the Distrist Advancement Chair I'm going to invite the District Executive and Council President to our committee training session. My son has asked me to not make waves until he has his Life, though. He said, "Let me just get through this last BOR and then you can go crazy." I told him I would but that I felt it was important for the boys coming up behind him that we "do this right" from now on. He agreed.

 

Twocubdad, I agree with your answer. But I also think it will be an eye opener if my son can go to his BOR with a detailed history of the Star badge. I'm looking forward to hearing what the Archivist finds out.

 

As for the delayed SM conferences, that's wrong. I think it comes from boy's meeting requirements too quickly for the SM's comfort. He's not using his conference correctly, if you ask me. HE should be making sure that a signed book reflects a skill learned, not the BOR. So instead of dealing with what the SM thinks is a boy who hasn't really learned something, he delays the conference with vague excuses about "readiness" and instructions to "demonstrate readiness" before you ask again.

 

At least we know what's wrong and what needs to be changed.

 

MaineScouter

 

[Eagledad]

Good morning MaineScouter

 

Isn't this forum a great place to camp or what? I guess I will be the devil in the discussion though. I hate that! But while what you describe first comes of as Egos out of control, I get more of the feeling that your troop is being run with good intension guided by ignorance. Ignorance is a lot easier to change than the self-serving desire to be Caesar. It's true that the relationship between the CC, SM and Council President is wrong, not to mention just plain dangerous for all. But, this just might be a scouting family with the passion of Baden Powell looking to do the best job they can.

 

And actually for me you paint a SM with a good heart, just bad practices. I get the feeling his goals a noble, but he lacks the skills. For example, you say he is frustrated with scouts meeting requirements to fast. Just about every SM I know goes through this phase of scout mastering because you have to test the limits to know where they are. It feels to me like your scoutmaster just needs more coaching and training.

 

I guess I am a glass half full kind of guy, but I've worked with a lot of well-intentioned adults with wonderful hearts and terrible technique. They just need a little guidance.

 

As for you, you are getting a lot of good advice here and ammunition to come out looking like the white knight. But in reality if you come in too strong and start pushing your female weight around the good ole boys.. Well maybe you can see what Im getting to. Oh, by the way, watch out throwing out that Good Old Boy phrase, because that puts you in a them against me place that you will never change. How about seeking to be one of boys and teaching them how WE can be part of a Great team.

 

What your troop needs right now is information and training. It needs facts to push out the myths and old bad habits. Start researching and learning. Find the BSA documents that explain the policies and procedures of running a troop. Go to training and if the adults seem to resist that for some reason, bring the trainers to the troop. Find and hour here and there to get expert help on BORs or committee policies. Suggest finding another troop that can help coach your SM, and suggest scouting forums as a source to ask for help. Have patience and pick your battles because in reality these folks need to be your friends. Like working with scouts, I would rather assume these folks to be good, just misguided. Once you get the boulder rolling, momentum will do the rest. Be deliberate in your assistance to the troop, but have patience because you will first be seen as just a woman without much experience. It will take time to build a trust that you arent so much an ambitious adult using the troop to feel powerful. But instead a humble servant looking to build a program for everyones sons, Get the BSA resources, read them and ask us questions. Find a local friend that can help your unit. Be bold and make your case. Be humble and let facts push out ignorance. Give your adults benefit of doubt.

 

I hope I havent come on too strong. You have received a lot of great advice in the last couple of days. This is a great campfire. Scouting is the best program going when it works. My years of scouting experience have taught me that when we adults try too hard, the boys will see scouting is great place to be until the adults get involved.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[ScoutNut]

MaineScouter, I might be missing something, but if your husband is the assistant committee chair in charge of Board of Reviews, why don't you just go to him with your concerns? I realize he can't be on the BOR for your son, but wouldn't he be the logical place to start changing the way your Troop does BOR's. Especially if he is the reason they started to re-test in the first place!

 

Just a thought.

 

BTW - I understand how it is in a "good 'ole boy" Troop. I've got one myself. Yours does at least let you work with the boys. My SM would rather cut his own throat, and considering how he is losing boys, maybe he has!

[SharonNC]

I'm just catching up on this thread, it's such a shock to me! I can't imagine telling a boy to wait 6 or 8 months. How many boys are in this troop? How could he do that to them? He's bil to the Council President? For crying outloud!

I'm meeting with our Council VP of Program tonight, he's an old salt, I'll ask him about the star points. But I'm betting on the man of Steele getting the right answer.

We held BOR for 2 of our youngest Scouts tonight, at their campout, they have no fear of us. We gave them a real class in how to present themselves, how to sit (only after being invited to sit), how to answer the questions by looking at the person, just a general "how to help yourself".......isn't that what a troop committee BOR is supposed to do? Gosh, are we supposed to make them hate us?

 

Hope the 'training' takes place soon and is well received in your "family" MaineScouter!

Sharon

[MaineScouter]

"MaineScouter, I might be missing something, but if your husband is the assistant committee chair in charge of Board of Reviews, why don't you just go to him with your concerns? "

 

You're not missing anything. He knows my concerns, believe me. This is not the first time we've had this "discussion"... or should I say, disagreement. His point of view is that the SM is not doing his job... the boys are coming to the BOR without the skills necessary for advancement. His belief is that they (the BOR members) aren't doing the Scout any favors by advancing him. So they "check" each boy at the BOR. Map orienting, knot tying, 1st aid, you name it... if it's been a requirement in the rank the boy is going for OR in a previous rank, they could ask for a demonstration/explanation. If the boy fails to demonstrate whatever it is they ask for, he is told that he did not "fail" the BOR, but that he has been continued and must return and demonstrate whatever it was he couldn't do for the BOR. My husband does not see this as testing or retesting, nor does he see a "continued BOR" as a failing BOR. He says they do it to ensure that each boy has the necessary skills for each rank. He believes this is the SM's job, but since the SM isn't doing it... the BOR will. See what I'm up against? The SM has actually sent boys to a BOR and told the BOR members what they should ask the boy to demonstrate so that they can hold him back and make him learn it. Pretty unbelievable, huh?

 

MaineScouter

[matuawarrior]

Hello MaineScouter,

 

I'm also doing some catch up on the forums. I've been busy with business and not able to read the forums as I used too.

 

You really need some overhaul done on some of your adult leaders. They need training and much more. From reading your posts, It seems that your male leaders are inflated with egos that can hardly fit in the meeting hall.

 

- 6-8 months for a Scoutmaster conference.

 

- SM conspires with BOR members to purposely fail scouts. (You don't test Scouts at BOR's).

 

- continued BOR's for scouts who can't pass the BOR.

 

 

I agree with the rest of the forum members that training in BSA advancement policies and procedures needs to be brought up and taught.

 

AS per your original posting, I was told along time ago that the 5-points to the Star represents the 5 MB's required for the award. That was back in the early 80's.

 

 

Matua

[MaineScouter]

Late last night (early this morning?) I read some of the older threads and especially enjoyed the discussion on the "right" age for a boy to earn Eagle. I had to laugh, our Troop leaders (SM and ASM) feel that 14 is too young for LIFE. That's one of the things going against my son and the other boy trying to make Life. My son was 14 in March, the other boy turned 14 in July. I honestly feel that was the major reason for delaying their SM conferences. He wanted them older. The only 12 yr old I've seen get Life in our Troop is the SM's nephew. Other than my older son, who was 25 days shy of 16, the boys I've seen attain Eagle are doing it within 4 to 6 weeks of turning 18. I think someone coined that "deathbed" Eagles.

 

My son has 5 weeks left to completing his last MB requirement necessary for Eagle. It will probably be a year or more before the SM will approve an Eagle project (he will be 15 1/2 then). It took my older son 8 different proposals before the SM would sign his Eagle project application. He had his heart set on doing a health fair concentrating on heart health and blood born pathogens, plus a community blood drive (he plans a career in the medical field). No way would the SM sign it. Another project he proposed was to map each cemetary in our town to locate all the Veterans and then mark them with flags every Memorial Day/Veteran's Day. Our Town Manager asked for help doing this... before we lose our Veterans and don't know where the graves are. SM said no, it wasn't a "lasting project", i.e. it wasn't a construction project, something you could put a plaque on. The SM then took that idea and used it for his Wood Badge community project. My son ended up building log dugouts for a girl's softball team. Now, you tell me, does that project compare in regards to service to others? Yes... the soap opera continues.

 

The more I read on these forums, the more I realize the changes needed in my own Troop. A new SM would be a great first step...

[Fat Old Guy]

"Late last night (early this morning?) I read some of the older threads and especially enjoyed the discussion on the "right" age for a boy to earn Eagle. I had to laugh, our Troop leaders (SM and ASM) feel that 14 is too young for LIFE."

 

At the risk of drawing Bob White's wrath, I'm inclined to agree with them. We have a Scout who will be a Life Scout months before his 12th birthday. What does he know? Not much. What does he do? Not much, he's the Librarian and the adults are all pretty sure that his Dad, an ASM, takes care of the Library for him. It was recently disclosed that his mother packs his gear for camping. Unfortunately, the rules require that we advance him.

 

Now that the requirements are being interpreted to be "open book" . . . who knows what will happen.

[MaineScouter]

"Now that the requirements are being interpreted to be "open book" . . . who knows what will happen. "

 

What does this mean?

[Laurie]

If the answer to this question is not in the current Boy Scout Handbook, then it would seem the question is not appropriate for evaluating a Scout. That is common sense. Though not trained yet, I have read oodles of Cub materials and Scout materials. I have the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book, and I just can't find anything to support the star question. Additionally, I can find nothing to support the amount of time a boy is made to wait before receiving his BOR (other than the service time for higher ranks). In fact, everything seems to promote moving forward at a consistent pace, not just waiting it out. Please keep us posted. This is a very disappointing thing to hear about.