Bob White Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 FOG, You fear you will draw my wrath for agreeing with someone who does not follow the scouting program? That has become so commonplace it barely draws my attention. You are welcome to agree with them, I just hope for the sake of the scouts you serve that you don't act on those thoughts, until the day that age becomes a requirement for advancemnt in the BSA. Otherwise, you would set a very bad example of being trustworthy, helpful, and obedient, and you would misrepresent the purpose methods and goals of the BSA. Let's remember that advancement is a tool, Eagle scout is not the goal, and being a leader, not being in charge, is the job of the adult. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 True there isn't an age requirement in BoyScouts for any rank. But with the upper ranks (1st Class & up) a Scout is expected to learn to become a leader. That's part of the requirements. And being a leader requires some maturity. Now a 12 year old might make an excellent Patrol leader. But I would say this is the exception instead of the rule. Most 12 year olds don't have the maturity to be leaders let alone Eagles. Can they learn? Sure they can. But they should be expected to move along at their own pace. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Your opinion perhaps, but not a requirement or element of the scouting program. The BSA believes that leadership is a learned skill and not a residual characteristic of maturity. There are numerous "mature" adults who lack the ability to successfully lead others. Also how would you objectively measure maturity and make it an equal measurement throughout a national program? The best measurement of maturity in a scout is scout spirit, his ability to live by the values of the Oath and Law. While you are welcome to your opinion we have a responsibility to deliver the scouting program in accordance to the methods and rules of the BSA. Living up to your responsibilities is evidence of being a mature leader. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nldscout Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 I do not want to get into the side tracked discussion about BOR or SM. I will answer the question what do the 5 points mean. They mean abolutly nothing except what ever rumors or stories someone can think up. I spent a number of years with the Old Guard, Army Ceremonial Unit, This question came up when we were looking at historical flags. According to the Researchers at the Institute of Herioldry the 5 pointed atar on the american flag was what was chosen for the first american flag. It has no recorded meaning. The scout badge just used the same 5 pointed star. So any meaning is another Urban scouting legand as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Maine Scouter asked, "What does this mean? " In another thread, Bob White & co. have determined that for advancement to demonstrate tying the bowline, the Scout could have the book open and follow the directions or even follow a leader step by step through the process. Bob White, you're almost comical. You say, "someone who does not follow the scouting program?" but you have no idea how I implement anything. You only know that I don't worship Texas. In days gone by, I thought that balks and infield flies were absurd but I called them. Maybe someday I'll become your worst nightmare and get a position on the National Advancement Committee. If I do, I'll work to get Ed a seat too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM406 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 A 12 year old life scout? He had to have approval of the SM and BOR to get there. I do not see where Maturity is listed in the Scout Handbook as a reguirement. Having leadership skills - is this equated with maturity? SM406 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Please FOG, the thought that you are a unit leader is scary enough. I have no worries of you or Ed serving on a national committee. That statement can be interpreted in two ways. I mean them both. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "I have no worries of you or Ed serving on a national committee." Why is that, Bob? Becaus I don't subscribe to your interpretation of the BSA! Remember, it's the Boy Scouts of America not he Bob Scouts of America! "Having leadership skills - is this equated with maturity?" Could be, yes! It goes to maturity. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Good day all >>The BSA believes that leadership is a learned skill and not a residual characteristic of maturity.> Also how would you objectively measure maturity and make it an equal measurement throughout a national program? The best measurement of maturity in a scout is scout spirit, his ability to live by the values of the Oath and Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineScouter Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 "On the other hand, leadership maturity is not and should not be a limitation working toward rank and advancement. [snip] Training is needed along with a little coaching from some experience adults. " Barry, I sure wish we lived closer to each other. I'd invite you to give my Troop "a little coaching." Your statement about leadership maturity not being a limitation toward rank and advancement... what is that based on? This is similar to what our SM terms "ready" to advance. The quiet, polite, non-assuming boys get advanced quickly with no regard to actual leadership. One quiet 12 yr old boy used his position of Troop Bugler to advance to Life, even though he never bugled at anything! The more rambunctious, out-going, in the middle of everything boys are told they have to wait. When asked about it, the SM says, "When he learns to focus/pay attention he can advance." It doesn't seem to matter if the boy has all of the requirements signed off in his book. He has to meet the SM's personal expectations first. He is especially hard on the ADHD/ADD boys. This topic is being covered at the next RT. He better be there. MaineScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Hi Mainescouter I would love to visit Maine. >>Your statement about leadership maturity not being a limitation toward rank and advancement... what is that based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nldscout Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Just once it would be nice to stay on topic and take the personnal disussion to issues area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 >>The quiet, polite, non-assuming boys get advanced quickly with no regard to actual leadership. One quiet 12 yr old boy used his position of Troop Bugler to advance to Life, even though he never bugled at anything! The more rambunctious, out-going, in the middle of everything boys are told they have to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "One quiet 12 yr old boy used his position of Troop Bugler to advance to Life" No he didn't!!! A Scoutmaster and at least three members of the troop committee allowed a boy to advance without providing him the direction needed to meet the actual rank requirements. The adults failed the youth. Let's remember who is responsible for the achieving the goals of the program. It is not the youth. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineScouter Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 Okay, I "should" have said, "The SM accepted 6 months as Troop Bugler for Requirement #5 for advancement to Life Scout, even though the scout (his nephew, the CC's son) never bugled for the Troop." (Bugler IS on the list of positions of responsibility) Yet he did not accept 6 months as APL because he felt that particular scout did not display adequate leadership qualities in his position during that time. The scout was not granted a SM conference and was asked to complete 4 more months as APL, attend summer camp and complete 3 weeks as a CIT. Even though an ASM DID sign his handbook as having completed this particular requirement in May, the SM did not accept it. THEN, once the SM conference was conducted (July 30th) his BOR (Aug. 20th) denied, or continued they would say, his advancement pending the current "star symbolism" question. He will repeat his BOR on Sept 10th. WHEW! This thread has definately reached the end of its lifespan. I hope that the Archivist is able to find an answer and that Dan posts it. It will be much appreciated. MaineScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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