Advisor Award of Merit for a Skipper?

[click23]

Over at http://www.seascout.org/for_leaders/adult_recognition/recognition-adult.html it says that Skippers can earn the Advisors Award of Merit, but I cannot to seem to find this anywhere where else, or is this website official enough?

[Buffalo Skipper]

The Advisor Award of Merit is for all Venturing Advisors. Sea Scouts is a part of the Venturing program, and it is appropriate for this to be earned by a Skipper. As far as the website goes, seascout.org is run by the national sea scout committee, as I understand it.

 

One more note (and others may disagree here). If a skipper is given this recognition, I see no harm in displaying it with a Sea Scout device, as both the Scouter's Training Award and the Scouter's (Skipper's) Key are specificially recognized on the Sea Scout level.

[emb021]

Have to agree with Buffalo Skipper's points.

 

Since if you receive a Venturing Leadership Award, its appropriate to wear the sea scout device on the knot to indicate which one(s), and you wear a sea scout device on the scouter's key and scouter's training award to indicate earning it as a sea scout leader, I don't see a problem with a skipper wearing the device on the advisor award of merit knot.

 

[BadenP]

I think that the Sea Scouts should have their own skipper award and not qualify for the advisor award for two reasons. Sea Scouting has been trying to gain their independence from Venturing for a long time now and with the new reorganization have seperated the two groups and they should be seperate groups. Second, most sea scout ships are run like paramilitary groups following naval rules and the skipper is the CO, unlike Venturing Crew Advisors who advise and guide not command behaviors or tasks as a skipper does. The two positions are diametrically opposed to each other.

 

So Sea Scouts need to be independant simply because their program is NOT the Venturing program pure and simple. Emb021 you know what I mean if you are the expert at Venturing you claim to be.

[emb021]

"I think that the Sea Scouts should have their own skipper award and not qualify for the advisor award for two reasons."

 

I think they should develop a separate set of requirements for skippers to received a 'skipper award of merit'.

 

"Sea Scouting has been trying to gain their independence from Venturing for a long time now and with the new reorganization have seperated the two groups and they should be seperate groups."

 

Sorry, but untrue.

 

Some in Sea Scouting would like Sea Scouting to be totally separate from Venturing. Won't happen. While the program divisions are gone, and the national sea scout committee was re-purposed and moved, Sea Scouting STILL remains a part of Venturing. This is little different from when Sea Scouting was pulled into the Senior Scout Division back in 1935.

 

"Second, most sea scout ships are run like paramilitary groups following naval rules and the skipper is the CO, unlike Venturing Crew Advisors who advise and guide not command behaviors or tasks as a skipper does. The two positions are diametrically opposed to each other."

 

Sorry, but untrue. There may be SOME ships out there that run like that, but most that I am aware of aren't like that. The position of Skipper, even back in the 30s and 40s, wasn't that much different from the equivalent positions of Post Advisor and Squadron Leader. The leadership within Ships, like Crews (and for that matter, scout troops) has long been in the hands of the youth leaders (aka 'petty officers' in some regions).

 

"So Sea Scouts need to be independant simply because their program is NOT the Venturing program pure and simple. Emb021 you know what I mean if you are the expert at Venturing you claim to be."

 

Sorry, but just don't agree. And my understanding of the history of the programs doesn't back up your view, IMO.

 

There may be some ships out there like what you describe, but I think the vast majority of ships aren't like that, and I would wonder how many Sea Scouts would want to be in such ships.

 

I would wonder how many of the national sea scout leadership would agree with your views?

[BadenP]

Gee emb021 when I went to a joint Venturing/Sea Scout leadership event recently what I relayed in my last post seemed to be how the sea scout leaders present viewed the recent reorganization, and they seem to be under the impression that they now are seperate from Venturing even though the National Office has the same people overseeing both programs. In fact on the volunteer level both national and regional level they are very seperate. Additionally they discussed that Venturing would be dropping the sea scout bronze and quartermaster award from their program leaving Quartermaster solely under the auspices of Sea Scouts. These leaders by the way had just returned from a regional sea scout leadership meeting. So disagree if you must but no one present from the council office refuted the information. Maybe you don't think so but these leaders said the chain of command on a ship is very much like a naval vessel, the teens are given command duties but the final decision lies with the skipper. Now I am no sea scout expert by any means but these people, experienced and trained sea scout leaders seemed to know what they were talking about, and I think they hold a little more credibility in this matter than you do.

[click23]

The memo,http://www.seascout.org/for_leaders/organizational_structure/2009-02-10_SSSC_report.pdf, put out on 2/10 by the national sea scout director, Keith Christopher, is pretty clear that Sea Scouts still fall under venturing, for now.

 

 

"Sea Scout members and all Ships continue to be registered as a part of Venturing (traditional) membership and units. Sea Scout Ships, as well as youth and adult members, still follow the standards of membership. Any awards, recognitions, and advancements a Sea Scout was eligible to earn prior to the change in organization are still available to them at this time. There could be changes made in the future, but none are planned at the present time. As any potential changes are reviewed, an adequate grace period will be shared with councils and with the field to allow ample time for implementation before they become a part of the program. For the moment, we stand with the statements, steady as she goes and stay the course!"

 

[emb021]

"when I went to a joint Venturing/Sea Scout leadership event recently what I relayed in my last post seemed to be how the sea scout leaders present viewed the recent reorganization, and they seem to be under the impression that they now are seperate from Venturing even though the National Office has the same people overseeing both programs."

 

Sadly, there are a lot of Sea Scout leaders out there who think that Venturing and Sea Scouting are separate, DISPITE what is said (prehaps not as clearly as it should be) in the letter click23 cited.

 

The Sea Scout leaders in one council within my region are running around with this idea in their heads, and I even asked our Regional Commodore about this. He agree with what's in the letter: Sea Scouting is still part of Venturing. He seemed to roll his eyes about the leaders in that one council, seeming to indicate they've always been a bit of a problem.

 

But, this is just one of several things I'm going to ask the national leadership at the upcoming BSA Meeting.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I think some leaders (BadenP, I am pointing a finger at what you have observed, not at you) just have it wrong. I see the Sea Scouting and Venturing programs as being 90% the same. The only real difference I see (as I alluded in the other thread) is the way in which the two execute their "Recognition" program. I do not advocate the separation of the two programs.

 

Our ships here are still new, but have developed a reasonable degree of youth leadership, and our skippers are definately not COs or anything close. Just like some Boy Scout Troops, Sea Scout Ships can be run in ways other than what is intended for the program.

 

Certainly everyone who has responded here agrees that there should be a separate "Skippers Award of Merit." It is just unclear to me why this has not been done. Interestingly, the SMAoM is submitted to NESA, where this award originated; however, the VAAoM is handled through the council, even thought the requirements are the same.

[BadenP]

I think the nebulous nature of the letter click posts is alluding to what these skippers told me. You notice it says "any awards sea scouts could receive before the reorganization" with no mention of venturers being able to continue to receive the quartermaster award, and that "any potential changes would occur after an adequate grace period" seem to be heading towards plans for future seperation which is exactly what these skippers were telling me. So it seems to me that the plans are set and waiting to be executed by National.

 

Buffalo, not to point a finger at you at you either, but when you have a ship with a crew dressed in naval uniforms displaying ranks mirroring their military counterparts, running drills, giving and executing orders given by superior officers,etc., and then say it is not paramilitary what else would you call it? Heck even the Sea Scout manual is set up like a US Navy operations manual The only sea scout units I have witnessed that are similiar at all to Venturing are the ones who are "ragbaggers", sailboaters with no ranks or uniform, other than a tshirt or polo shirt, no ranks or drills just having fun on the water. This is why I agree with the skippers in my council that the split is inevitable, has already been planned out and National is just waiting for the right time to make it official, my bet is that it will happen in time for the BSA centennial.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Actually, Venturers have never been able to earn Sea Scout ranks or awards. In order to earn these, one must be a registered member of a Sea Scout Ship. On the unit application in the bottom left (above the executive officer signature) is a place for a "Special-interest code." For Sea Scouts, this is 1208. For Venturing crews, there are many more, including 4 or 5 which are boating related. However, if the unit is registered as anything other than "1208," which is described as "Ship only," members are ineligible to earn Sea Scout ranks and awards. Ranks are: Apprentice, Ordinary, Able and Quartermaster. Examples of Sea Scout Awards are: Small Boat Handler, Qualified Seaman, and Long Cruise. It is my understanding that Scoutnet will not update anything other than 1208 units with Sea Scouting Ranks, in the same way that persons registered to a Boy Scout troop cannot earn the Arrow of Light, a Cub Scout achievement. Units registered as a 1208 may also earn any Venturing Award (just not the reverse).

 

I do agree with you that Sea Scout uniforms do strongly resemble their Navy equivalents. But BSAs charter states clearly that wearing of military uniforms is prohibited. The uniforms which are worn used to be like the navy uniforms, but have been modified in authorized ways to no longer make them an actual military uniform. Likewise, the officer patches of Sea Scouts do resemble the Navy and Coast Guard ranks, but see the difference? One is rank, another is position and are therefore very different. Just as a Patrol Leaders patch has 2 green bars, just as corporals have 2 chevrons and SPLs/Sergeants share 3 bars/chevrons. Yet they are different. (Bars-chevrons, Rank-office).

 

Uniforming in Sea Scouting is optional, and like Venturing, Sea Scouts may choose their own; and like Venturers, there is an "official" uniform, but it is not required. I have seen many Sea Scout ships who have chosen uniforms which are not the "official" Sea Scout uniform. I would hardly call them shabby. Many are very sharp in their appearance and their demeanor, regardless of whether they operate power boats, sailboats, both or neither.

 

Sailing, power boating, drill, and marlinspike (just to name a few) are skills which are a part of the program. The navy operates no sail vessels, yet the midshipmen at the academy learn how to handle all manner of vessels, and even form competitive sailing teams. It is a skill, which like in scouting, is a means to learning discipline, gaining experience and building character, and conveniently can be fun. Boy Scout troops often learn marksmanship (rifle shooting) as do Army snipers, but that does not make troops a para-military organization, even if some people believe it to be true

 

Mis-perceptions like this are common. And they are understandable, when one does not understand the purpose, intent or means of the Sea Scout program.

(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[emb021]

"when you have a ship with a crew dressed in naval uniforms displaying ranks mirroring their military counterparts, running drills, giving and executing orders given by superior officers,etc., and then say it is not paramilitary what else would you call it? Heck even the Sea Scout manual is set up like a US Navy operations manual The only sea scout units I have witnessed that are similiar at all to Venturing are the ones who are "ragbaggers", sailboaters with no ranks or uniform, other than a tshirt or polo shirt, no ranks or drills just having fun on the water."

 

Buffalo Skipper pretty much said a lot that I was going to say, so I won't repeat it, but will comment on your comments about ships.

 

I think few ships follow your first example here.

 

If I saw a ship following your second example (the 'ragbaggers'), I'd frankly speak to them and tell them they really should be a Venturing Crew with an aquatic focus. If they aren't going to use the advancement, office structure, and even the basics of a sea scout uniform, they really aren't even using the basics of sea scouts, and should be a Venturing Crew instead.

 

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb, but frankly all the ships I've dealt with, and I think most of the ships (if not all of the ships) in my region fall halfway between these 2 examples. They are not rigid, 'junior navy rotc'-type units you seem to think sea scouting is. They use the advancement program. They have sea scout uniforms (maybe not navy crackerjacks, may have white crackerjacks for formal things, but usually have either white summer uniforms &/or chambray blue work uniforms for the youth), they use the basic sea scout program and structure and come to sea scout regattas and such.

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I agree, at least in part, with what emp021 said about the choice between a Sea Scout ship and a Venturing crew, but not entirely. The primary reason to register as a 1208 is for the advantage of using the rank advancement program. The sail oriented Sea Scouts you describe may well be able to register as a Crew, say as a 1204, Sailing and Boating. But if there are other subtle reasons to remain chartered as a Ship. For one, it is, for lack of a better word, image. Ships assume names, an identity which often carries on to any vessels it may operate. There is also a level of convenience with the program Sea Scout program if you are a water-borne unit (even if you do not utilize the rank structure). There is a significant amount of safety and seamanship emphasis, as expressed in the Sea Scout Manual, which is absent from the Venturing program. And the officer positions are reflective of skills associated with seamanship (not exclusive to the military). Just because you don't follow the ranks, doesn't mean you do not want to demonstrate proficiency with maritime skills, especially if you are operating vessels. Uniforming is optional all the way around (but is required to participate in regional--depending on the region--and national level events); again, this is something I see as pretty much a non-issue.

 

I do, however, feel strongly about your use of word "ragbaggers." This is a derogatory word usually associated with a perception of power boat operators. I would no sooner use this word with a Sea Scout ship than I would "stinkpotters" or "smoke blowers" to describe a youth group who operate motor vessels. These are polarizing terms which have no place when working with teenagers in any scouting program.

[BadenP]

Buffalo skipper your explaination of sea scout vs naval uniforms is little more than splitting hairs, they are both manufactured by the same company is my understanding.

 

As far as "ragbaggers" is concerned that's the term these sea scout units and other sailors I know and sail with use for themselves and do not consider it a derrogatory term in the slightest. In fact the sea scout ragbaggers pride themselves as being more ecologically minded than the powerboat ships they call "stinkpots".

[sailingpj]

"Second, most sea scout ships are run like paramilitary groups following naval rules and the skipper is the CO, unlike Venturing Crew Advisors who advise and guide not command behaviors or tasks as a skipper does."

 

There is a very good reason that Skippers act like that sometimes. When you are on a boat the Skipper is responsible for the lives of everyone on board. That is Maritime Law. The Skipper and other officers are there to make sure that the boat doesn't sink. In our ship the only time I have ever seen a Skipper act like a CO is when we are on the boat and under way, and that is only because the crew is very new and they don't know night navigation, and they don't know how to read the chart yet, and they are still learning how to drive a boat. When you have the people who do know what they are doing on watch the Skipper takes a step back and just keeps an eye on the situation. If the skipper didn't step up and act like a CO sometimes, our boat would probably be sitting on a beach somewhere, or stuck in the mud, or be turned in to flotsam because we got run over by a container ship.