Venturers need to be registered in a Troop to earn Eagle has reared its ugly head again

[CNYScouter]

Last night at our District First Aid rally I was approached by a husband and wife that are on the District Advancement Committee and they had been meaning to talk with me about my son getting his Eagle Rank.

 

They told that I needed to get him registered in a Troop ASAP because needed to be registered in a troop to earn the rank of Eagle.

They also expected him to have his POR through the Troop and be active in the Troop for 6 months prior earning Eagle.

 

They went on to say that the DAC will not accept anything done at the Venturing level for Eagle Scout because Eagle is a Boy Scout award and Venturing has its own awards. He insisted that it states on the Eagle App that a youth must be registered in a Troop to earn Eagle.

 

I said that this wasnt correct and I had gone through this same discussion a couple of years ago with our old DE when I started the Ship. I told him that I talked with someone at the National office (I dont remember his name) about this and was told that a youth could be registered only in a Crew or Ship and earn Eagle.

 

The Advancement person just said that I was wrong and the person at the national council was wrong. He even wasnt convinced when another Venturing Leader, who is also our ex District Chair and listening in, agreed with me.

 

I downloaded the latest copy of the Eagle App and I dont see anything that says this.

 

My son has been very active in both the Ship and Crew. He earned Life Scout in the Ship and was Boatswain for over 2 years (most of it after turning Life) in the Ship and was just elected President of the Crew. After looking at the latest Eagle app he has more than fulfilled the requirements.

 

Although he has 10 months before he is 18 he really doesnt have 6 months available to put into a Troop level POR. He will be leaving to staff summer camp the end of June (in 5 months) and starts Football right after coming back and runs through his 18th birthday. Also dont think its right to ask a Troop to remove someone from their POR and replace him with my son in the middle of the year.

 

My son is still a few months away from his EBOR so I have time to work this out

They say you need to pick your battles well this is one I am going to pick.

 

So this leads to a couple of questions

 

1) The Advancement person asked when did it change (not having to be registered in a troop to earn Eagle)? Was this ever a requirement?

 

2) Who else should I get involved to work through this? We do not have a council advancement person, as EBOR and project approval are done on the District Level. I have to add I have never met our DAC. He never comes to District Committee meetings or Roundtable but I do know most of the other people on the District Advancement Committee.

 

3) A few years back a letter was on the National Site explaining this. Does anyone have a copy of this you can send me? I saw a copy of this once and this would easily clear this up.

 

[MissingArrow]

Never had to have this argument with the District Advancement Committee, but did have it with a Troop that turned their back on a young man.

 

In all honestly the Eagle Scout Requirements should be clear enough to show them they are wrong:

 

From http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx

 

1. Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout.

 

4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility:

 

* Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor.

* Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, or den chief.

* Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper.

 

To me those are pretty clear that there is no need to be registered in a Troop, since it spells out the requirements for Venturing Crews and Ships.

 

[shortridge]

An even clearer statement on the issue:

 

"Any Venturer who achieved the First Class rank as a Boy Scout in a troop or Varsity Scout in a team may continue working for the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks and Eagle Palms while registered as a Venturer up to his 18th birthday."

 

www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx (look at the first note under the requirements)

 

I don't know when it "changed" - probably with the advent of Venturing? - but it doesn't matter. Sounds like a couple of busybodies. You're right, they're wrong, don't worry about it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[emb021]

"1) The Advancement person asked when did it change (not having to be registered in a troop to earn Eagle)? Was this ever a requirement? "

 

Since the 1930s, Scouts could earn Eagle in senior scouting units (Explorer Scout Posts, Air Scout Squadrons, Sea Scout Ships) and even had alternate paths to Eagle that did not require them to have EVER been in a Scout Troop.

 

Get a copy of the "Advancement Guidelines" book. It should make it clear youth can earn Eagle in Crews. This is also covered in the "Venturer Handbook". Since Venturing POR are acceptable for Eagle, it should be clear they don't need to be in a troop.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Get a copy of Requirements #33215, and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. Highlight the parts discussing Venturers and Boy Scouting ranks.

 

Ask them over a friendly cup of coffee if the issue is dealt with. If not, ask for a business meeting with the Council Advancement Chairman.

[Eagle92]

As long as I could remember, venturers, and explorers before them, could earn eagle. get a copy of the advancement guidelines, as well as a current Eagle application, and have that friendly chat with the Advancement Chair , District Chair, and DE. If that doesn't work, break out the big guns and contact council advancement chair.

[Gunny2862]

If no Council Advancement person, as Advancement is handled in your District by the Districts then wake up the District Executive and if necessary the Scout Exec. in your area. Starting with them over a cup of coffee and the resources John-in-KC suggests would be a good way to go.

[CNYScouter]

Unfortunately this couple are both long-time Scouters , both retired and both sit on the committee that approves Eagle projects and on EBOR and it is very rare that they miss one of these.

 

Our DE doesnt have a clue on what Scouting is about. Hes been a DE for a couple of years and its his first involvement with Scouting.

 

The advice you all have given to read the requirements, Eagle App and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Guidelines are exactly what this person has told me to do and when I did I would see that he was right.

 

My question on if this was ever a requirement is because he insisted that a youth needed to be registered in a troop is printed right on the Eagle Application.

 

One thing our council has asked is to contact our commissioners first to see of they can work it out so Ill go that route first.

 

[AlFansome]

It really doesn't matter about the past...that's history and will just confuse the issue.

 

Read the Eagle Scout Application at http://www.nesa.org/trail/58-728.pdf and it will be 100% crystal clear that Venturers can earn their Eagle rank.

 

From that app:

 

"AGE REQUIREMENT ELIGIBILITY. Merit badges, badges of rank, and Eagle Palms may be earned by a registered Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. He may earn these

awards until his 18th birthday. Any Venturer who achieved the First Class rank as a Boy Scout in a troop or Varsity Scout in a team may continue working for the Star, Life,

and Eagle Scout ranks and Eagle Palms while registered as a Venturer up to his 18th birthday."

 

There's no way that this can be argued. If these two still think they are right, then you need to immediately start escalating the issue and get these bozos out of the equation.

 

 

[sdcc57]

As mentioned in earlier messages both Venturers and Sea Scouts may work on their Eagle as members on those units until they turn 18,as long as they were at least First Class when they joined those units.Since a youth can only become First Class in a Boy Scout troop or Varsity team this restricts the Eagle rank to males,since these elements of the Boy Scout program level are restricted to male youth.

While it's not required for these youth to continue their registration in a Boy Scout or Varsity unit to continue working on their Boy Scout ranks there are some good reasons to encourage them to do so.Probably the most basic is that these are Boy Scout ranks,best worked on in the setting of a Boy Scout/Varsity unit.Another reason is that by remaining active in a Boy Scout/Varsity unit the young man can give back to that unit,and hopefully reduce the concerns of the unit leader in having his older youth "stolen" by Venturing/Sea Scout units.

I've heard current and former members of the Venturing Division discuss this point,which I believe can be helpful to both the Venturing/Sea Scout and the Boy Scout/Varsity units involved.

[John-in-KC]

One other option is to get out the big guns at the right moment, and have your COR contact the District Chairman and the Council Executive Board:

 

"Mr and Mrs X are to have no contact with members of units my organization sponsors. This includes activities away from our host facility."

 

Bans on Scouters by Chartered Partners around my neck of the woods get the immediate and undivided attention of Council Scout Executives.

 

Kind? No. Drastic? Yes. Gets results? Around here, yeppers.

[ElyriaLeader]

Perhaps, seeing that the poster mentioned that these were an older, retired couple that they are still using the eagle application from prior to 2000 (which I believe did not have the provisions for a venturer) and this is why I'm pretty sure (haven't seen one in a while) the new ones have a statement that says something like "forms prior to 2000 are obsolete" or "do not use forms dated prior to 2000"

or something along those lines.

[Hal_Crawford]

From the current (2008) Eagle application (bottom of second page, in red):

 

EDITIONS OF THIS APPLICATION PREVIOUS TO THE 2008 REVISION SHOULD NOT BE USED.

 

Also on the application:

Any Venturer who achieved the First Class rank as a Boy Scout in a troop or Varsity Scout in a team may continue working for the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks and Eagle Palms while registered as a Venturer up to his 18th birthday.

 

I would suggest that you put this form in front of them and ask them to read to you the part that shows that they are right and you are wrong. If need be, highlight the above passages. You might also highlight the unit number blank where it says, "Troop, Team, Crew or Ship.

 

Good luck.

[CalicoPenn]

TO answer the question "When did it change" - the answer is never. Ever since Explorers, Air Explorers and Sea Scouts were given the opportunity to earn Eagle Scout, it has never been required that they be members of a Troop as well.

 

Contact the District Advancement Chair and ask him/her what his/her position is on this (as I read it, you only have these two well-meaning but incorrectly informed Scouters word on what the DAC expects - and nothing from the "horse's mouth"). If the DAC states that your som must be a member of the Troop and refuses to either prove that up by showing you where, in an official National BSA publication, that rule is stated, or refuses to change his/her mind if you show him otherwise, then contact Council and find out who the Council Advancement Chair is an officially request that your son's Eagle BOR be provided at the Council level without the participation of these three folks. If he/she refuses, then it's time for the Chartered Org partner to contact the Council President and Scout Executive to find out why the Council is refusing to follow the program that they promised to deliver to the Chartered Organization.

 

Calico

[nldscout]

CNY,

 

Contact The Council Advancement chair, John White. He will set them straight. He just had to set the DAC in one of the Northern districts on the right path over an eagle BOR.