COR trouble

[John-in-KC]

Just called my District Director.

 

His read is that Internet Recharter does not double back and cross-check COR's across a Chartered Partner's spectrum of units. It takes an eyeball inspection in the Registrar's office to catch this kind of error.

 

This is based on his having and his DC having to resolve multiple CORs to a Chartered Partner in the past couple years.

 

So... is it right to do? Normally Usually Generally Most of the Time (read 99.alotof9s %) No.

 

Can it be done? Yes.

 

Has it been done? Yes.

 

Is it worth losing sleep over? Probably not.

[OldGreyEagle]

Each Chartering Organization is to have one COR, that is BSA policy

 

Has a Chartering Orgaization ever had three? One each for the Pack, Troop, and Crew? I don't know as I am not familiar with all the Chartering Organizations in the country. How could such a thing happen? I don't know, Somebody thinks it would be a good idea so the DE says fine, we will have 3 COR's, one for each unit and he makes sure only one name appears on the Charter but the three individuals act like they are COR's and the Chartering Organization treats all three like they are COR's and the units treat them like they are COR's and what difference does it make?

[Bob White]

Let me try to answer your questions as if I were still an active Commissioner OGE.

 

I am sorry if the DE gave you that incorrect information. This is propable not a topic he has dealt with before. But if you stop to think about a troop can only have one Scoutmaster, a unit committee can only have one chairperson, a Pack can only have one cubmaster. So the concept of only having one person in a job is not something new to the structure of scouting.

 

As you can see here in the rules and regulations of the BSA your unit can only have one Chareter Organization Representative for a number of reasons. One being that the Cr is a voting member of the district and counciul and if you were allowed to ignore the rules and have three CRs it would be an unfair advantage to those units that follow the rules. And is't one of the opurpose to having rules so that everyone plays the game with same advantages and disadvantages?

 

Secondly, Your solution to have three CRs and yet only show one on the Charter is interesting, however the CR is a registered member and position in the BSA. If you only register one, then you only have one. So you really would not have three CRs as you suggest would you? Now if your CR wants to recruit a couple of helpers that's fine, but they are not CRs as they are not registered and they do not have the duties or authorities of a CR.

 

Thirdly, and most importantly, the BSA has developed these rules and this structure to help your program run smoothly and to help you have a strong scouting programs. The further you get away from the policies, program, and procedures of the BSA the more problems you will encounter. Is it your intention to try and create more problems than you need?

 

So there is the harm, the BSA policies say that you can only have one CR, the BSA says the CO can only have 1 vote, the BSA developed these structures for the health and smooth operation for your unit. It is the BSA's program and in signing your charter each year you promised to follow the BSA's policies, procedures, and program of the BSA.

 

That is why you will need to identify just one person from the charter organization to be the Charter Organization Representative.

 

I can provide you with a pamphlet that explains the role of the CR in addition I would be happy to provide your CR with training to help them with their new responsibilities.

 

Commissioner Mode OFF

Trainer Mode ON

 

OGE asks,"What difference does it make".

 

Here is the difference.

 

It is not your role as a commissioner to just nod your head and let units do whatever they want. As a commissioner, YOU are the difference. You are responsible for helping units successfully deliver the BSA program to youth, not your version of the BSA program, or the majorities version of the BSA...but the BSA's Program.

 

You cannot have a successful scouting program if you aren't actually doing scouting. Doing "stuff" in a Scout uniform is not a Scouting program.

 

This is a documented, purposefully planned, national program. And as a Commissioner you have a responsibility to represent the BSA program and you should some idea of what the heck you are talking about.

 

Unit volunteers think you know what the program is, They don't know when you are making it up and when you are telling the truth. They trust you, And as a Commissioner the BSA trusts you to be their representative to the units. When you don't give accurate BSA information you are misrepresenting who you are and what the BSA is.

 

That's the difference!

 

What is the phrase...Character Counts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BadenP]

I think I can answer Beavah's question, you are right that all Catholic Churches are part of a diocese or archdiocese giving the bishop the authority over all Catholic churches in a given area which is for legal reasons, cannon and civil.

 

Scouting units however are chartered to individual churches not the archdiocese and the pastor or one of his staff is usually the IH and they appoint a COR for all units that church charters. It is no different than LDS units where each ward sponsors a unit even though several or more wards may be part of the same stake. Beavah I wouldn't worry about an unfair monopoly, it has yet to be a problem all these years. Bob is technically correct that there can only be one COR for each charter organization no matter how many units they sponsor.

[OldGreyEagle]

What is the use of knowledge if people will not accept that knowledge because of the manner in which it is presented?

 

[Bob White]

You know OGE much of the 'emotion' or 'attitude' read into my posts comes from attitude of the reader. You and I used to exchange some very friendly and supportinve posts when I started. Then posters were allowed to argue their points not based on the elements of the topic but on their personal opinion of me, or FScouter, or Docrwm. And you turned to the darkside. You have been convinced that giving the wrong information with a Boston accent or a questionable but 'professional" background is better than giving the facts from the offical BSA program training and resources.

 

Posters were then allowed to insult me and others rather than to discuss the post. They were allowed to hurl insults at others in scouting who did not participate on the forum even when those people weren't actually involved in the problem but were thought to be because the poster had poor knowledge or no knowledge of the workings of the structure of scouting beyonfd the unit level. A Them Vs. Us attitude was allowed to flourish and as a moderator, you were one of the people that allowed that to happen because you made it clear that you did not like me. And others have taken advantage of your willingness to take sides.

 

The forum became run by mob rule in my opinion. You seem to forget that when I was off the forum for over two years that people still posted insults about me and no one stopped them. When FScouter posted the correct scouting information and was attacked personally and had his posts misquoted, and no one stopped them.

 

When Doc was insulted and misquoted, No one stopped them. Do I need to repost the name calling that you and other moderators have allowed Ed and BadenP get away with? The inaction of the moderators to stop the personal attacks by other posters has allowed them to become more bold because they know you do not like their targets. Is it any wonder I defend myself on occassion if the moderates will not moderate then who else is there to defend me, I am in the minority here as a supporter of the policies, proceduers, and program od the BSa.

 

But it is after all a Scouting Forum, how can it possibly help anyone if you do not allow the actual elements of the scouting program to be shared?

 

When people ask for help, I help, When they ask for the right answer I tell them what it is and where they can find it. When they tell me they are former pros or council commissioners or unit leaders who nearly collapse a troop, and they give the wrong information...I say they are wrong and direct them to the BSA resources to support it.

 

I cannot help what you like or dislike. I can only tell you what the BSA program is and where to find it.

 

I have never used my experience or credentials to tell anyone what to do on this or any forum. I give the BSA resources where they can go to learn the BSA program.

 

Beavah dismisses me because I live in a smaller town than him, BadenP dismisses me because he doesn't think I have any Scout leadership experience. Ed...well that says it all about Ed.

 

No one should decide what to do based on BadenP's credentials or Beavah's or mine. They should follow the BSA program. If BadenP's credentials are what make him a Scouting expert, then what happens when one of the thousands of Scouters with more crentials than him comes along, now who do you follow? The same thing for Beavah. if his opinion is what matters then what in heavens name happens to scouting should Beavah ever shed his mortal coil? (beilieve me BadenP you would not want to do a battle of Scouting credentials with the members of this or any other Scouting forum. Neither you nor Beavah would win.)

 

The BSA is the expert on the Scouting program. I do not see how anyone can logically argue with that. That being the case, why not encourage posters with problems on how to solve them by geting back in line with the scouting program. The real problem is not that I share the Official program, the problem is that few others do.

 

OGE you do not have to like the horse that truth rides in on, but you need to be able to know what the truth is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Good heavens!

 

Yah, to go back to OGE's question, I think da original question was answered: it wasn't a COR issue at all, it was a CC issue and some missed communication. COR did the right thing and went and had a cup of Joe with da crew advisor.

 

We now return yeh to the 35th season of da BobWhite thread, already in progress.

 

(If I may suggest, I think what BobWhite misses is that there are two components of law/rules...statute, and precedent. In quotin' statute, he's doin' only da easier half of good jurisprudence. The harder and often more important bit is understandin' precedent, which interprets da laws for particular circumstances. Only taken together are they a system of rules for "program.")

 

B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

Indeed BobWhite I have changed. I would like to think for the better

[Bob White]

"(If I may suggest, I think what BobWhite misses is that there are two components of law/rules...statute, and precedent. In quotin' statute, he's doin' only da easier half of good jurisprudence. The harder and often more important bit is understandin' precedent, which interprets da laws for particular circumstances. Only taken together are they a system of rules for "program.") "

 

I gotta tell ya Beavah that seems like lot of words just to make more excuses for not having to following the rules

 

[BadenP]

Gee Bob

In my last post on this thread I agreed with what you had posted as being correct and attempted to try to clear some confusion for Beavah. In your response you attack not only me but other well established posters here, what do you want from us?

 

First I think we should all agree that no one person here in this forum is a true expert concerning all aspects of scouting. Second if we share our ideas and resources in a truly civil manner then we should probably come up with the correct answers most of the time. Thirdly Bob I don't discount your scouting experience like you do my own and I enjoy hearing experiences from others, even those I might disagree with, and whats happening with scouting in other parts of the country. Let you and I agree to keep our exchanges civil and respectful as two experienced scouters and at the same time show the same courtesy to others in this forum. I am willing to make this happen and I hope you will as well. No more attacks or insults just a spirited exchange of ideas, what do you say.

[Bob White]

First, I don't think ANYBODY on this forum myself included is an expert on the BSA. I maintain the BSA is the expert on the BSA.

 

Second, I am all for sharing ideas unless the idea is to tell people incorrect information about the policies, program, or procedures of the Boy Scouts of America and its programs.

 

Third, You have discounted my experience a number of times, including saying that I have never been a unit leader, which is really kinda whacky considering that you haven't the slightest idea what my scouting background is.

 

Fourth, All I know of your scouting experience is that you say you used to be a professional scouter. No one should care what you used to be, what matters is if you have accurate knowledge of today's Scouting program and the official resources for delivering a quality Scouting program to youth. You have constantly avoided using any BSA resource to support any of the times you have attacked me, so I have no way of knowing if you even know the program. In addition most everything you have posted has been contradicted by the contents of the current BSA resources and trainig syllabi. That is all I know about you.

 

The BSA says what the BSA policies, procedures, and programs are, why does anyone need to know about our background? You could tell people that you used to be the King of Siam and there is no way to prove it. Here's a tip about forums, it's the Internet, trust no one and verify everything.

 

The last thing I would want is for anyone to take my word for anything without first investigating the resources I share.

 

As far as what we will do... I will continue to provide accurate information based on the contents of the BSA resources and training. So that folks can go learn the actual BSA program and not follow one person's personal opinion.

 

What you do I have no control of, or interest in. Do not try to act like my friend. You posted (among other things)that I was "a complete waste of time". Do not think that I have any interest in being your friend.

[BadenP]

Ok Bob I tried, you have said nasty things about me in the past as well, very nasty things but I am willing to forget all of that. We do not have to be friends but we could at least be civil to each other from now on. Attacking each other and the others on this forum you insult is really tedious and counterproductive and it causes your points to be lost in a flurry of anger. If you really take to heart the Scout Law,which I think you do, then it is time to start being courteous, kind, helpful, and friendly to everyone on this forum.

[Bob White]

Just so the moderators and other posters understand...The worst thing I have said about BadenP is that he "used to be a professional for a few years" a fact he has known made about himself on more than a few occassions. When applicable I have pointed out that according to the resources of the official BSA program, his information was incorrect.

 

Neither his having been a pro, or his information conflicting with the BSA's is my fault nor is it attacking him.

 

BadenP said"I have tried to appeal to Bob civily in the past only to be insulted by him at every turn

 

Well let's review some of BadenP's civil appeals to me shall we?

 

" ...you will find out for yourself just how pathetically untrue and simplistic your argument really is. Of course you would already know your statements were faulty if you really were a real scouter. You really are a piece of work Bobby."

 

"You are so full of your self rightgeous self Bob there is no getting thru to that narrow little mind of yours"

 

"The GREAT BOB has spoken everyone,"

 

"Man you love to twist other peoples words beyond recognition don't you Bobby"

 

"Personally I don't think BW has all the experience he claims, he can quote a pub. source all he wants but most of his answers shows a real lack of experience ever leading any scout unit. Only in this forum can he pretend to be master scout of the world,"

 

"Your facts are once again false Bobby, your logic is as faulty as your incorrect interpretation of history and BSA policies. Even when you know you are wrong you will try to make others believe you are correct, lol. A real piece of work"

 

"The only revisionist historian here is BW."

 

"It amazes me the amount of misinformation he relates and he creates his own fantasy world of scouting where only he knows the rules."

 

"Geesshhh now BW was the test subject for the new Wood Badge at Gilwell, another lie BW"

 

Care to explain which one of these was your civil appeal?

 

I will continue to post information supported by the resources of the BSA, you do what you want to do.

 

I have nothing more to add on this topic.

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

BadenP: "No more attacks or insults just a spirited exchange of ideas"

 

Bob White: "I have nothing more to add on this topic"

 

Great! Wonderful! Stupendous! We now have it on record. The feud is over. You and a few others here are damned lucky that I am not a moderator, because I wouldn't tolerate the childishness as long as these fine moderators have. I am a HUGE proponent of free speech, but posting here is a privilege and NOT a right. The oath and law should be sufficient in most cases excpet where those individuals refuse to follow them. Being kind and friendly never cost anyone anything. Be it! Live it!

 

I will now climb down from my soapbox.

[Beavah]

*sigh*

 

Yah, but BobWhite, what yeh missed is that after Eamonn's plea, BadenP offered an olive branch, eh? He listened to da feedback of others, admitted his errors, and offered to do better.

 

You took his olive branch, and set it on fire. Usin' all da combustibles you could that were lyin' around from the past.

 

Just like yeh had to get in a personal dig at me about "rules", rather than tryin' to understand the point.

 

I'm sorry for yeh, mate. Yeh should think about takin' a break.

 

B

 

For anybody else who was interested in da discussion, I was not talkin' about breakin' rules. BSA has statutes, and it has professional practices, eh? Both define what the BSA says about its own program. Which is why insight from those folks who have served for years wearin' wreaths is valuable.

 

In this case, despite da "statutes", we allow more than one Catholic COR per diocese. Or per parish. Da CO tells us what it considers a separate organization, eh? If they say a parish is separate, we consider it separate, even though legally it is the same organization. If a pastor says the parish elementary school is a separate organization from the teen youth program or the mens' club, then we consider 'em separate, eh? The practice of da BSA is not to interfere at all in da internal governance of the CO, and to effectively accept multiple CORs from what is legally one organization.

 

That's not Beavah talkin', eh? That's da BSA setting the BSA's own practice and precedent in how it interprets its own program rules. It's a mistake in da real world of law to read statutes without also examining case law. Both define and authentically interpret da law. It's a mistake in the BSA to look only at da guidebooks, and not look also at the actual practice. Both define what da BSA program is. If we just look at the former, we're puttin' our own interpretation on what da guidebook means, rather than lookin' for what da BSA's interpretation really is. We're claimin' to be BSA spokesmen, when we're really not.

 

So I reckon, if we all want to "follow da program," it's important to read the handbooks and take training, but it's equally imporant, perhaps more important, to understand how those things are properly interpreted in actual practice, and especially in "best" practice.

 

For that we need to listen to folks like BadenP and others here, eh? And not just belittle 'em.

 

Beavah