When is a crew member an adult according to BSA?

[Beavah]

Yah, no question this is a complete hash, eh?

 

In da real world in which we live, a lad of ordinary intellect becomes a legal adult at age 18. For some things, like legal consent for sexual intercourse and in some states even for marriage, youth under the age of 18 are treated as adults.

 

Within da BSA there is a notion of "program adult" and "program youth" for various programs. Those definitions in no way alter the definition of legal adulthood.

 

Within da BSA there is also a notion of "registration status" which may or may not correspond to program status.

 

Then yeh introduce YP guidelines, which use one word - "youth" - in a all those different ways. Legal minors, consenting minors, program youth vs. adults, etc. Sprinkle on a wee bit of molestation and litigation paranoia and we have a recipe that guarantees 95% of our trainers give bad advice.

 

In my personal opinion, in reference to da real world (as opposed to the world of Scouting definitions and rules):

 

* There is no issue, worry, or fear with havin' a high school youth of 18 tenting with a high school youth of 17 of the same gender. Or another high school youth above da age of consent. These kids are sharin' a locker room and takin' showers together after football practice, eh? However, programmatically this is not allowed in Boy Scouting but is allowed in Venturing.

 

* There is some sense of creepiness in a high school kid of 18 tenting with an adult of 40. Too much power differential. However this is allowed in Boy Scouting but not in Venturing.

 

* There is no real issue in an over-21 adult who is in college tenting with an over the age of consent adult or minor who is also in college. However, this is allowed in Boy Scouting but not allowed in Venturing.

 

* Some degree of caution should be exercised in having an above-the-age-of-consent high schooler tenting with a middle school student. However, this is allowed in Boy Scouting.

 

* A considerable degree of caution should be exercised in having a college student tenting with a below-the-age-of-consent high school student. However, this is allowed in Venturing.

 

* An above-the-age-of-consent college student should not be dating a below-the-age-of-consent minor. However, this is allowed in Venturing.

 

* There is no real problem with an over-21 college student dating an under-21 college student. However, this is not allowed in Venturing.

 

* If there is a larger group of people sharing the tent, then none of this really matters. Put 20 kids in a big tepee and you'd better have adult supervision with them, not claim that YP doesn't allow it. However, YP doesn't allow it in some cases .

 

I think folks should be more thoughtful about these "real world" considerations and use common sense for your community, rather than relyin' on da letter of BSA YP. There's just no good way to write a simple, effective, and intelligible set of YP guidelines that apply across states and programs and individual unit conditions, which is why da BSA ones get into trouble or get people confused. In fact, I expect someone will now jump in to tell me I'm confused about one of da ones I posted, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gold Winger]

"Remember what Hooty Owl says!"

 

Give a hoot, don't polute?

 

"* There is some sense of creepiness in a high school kid of 18 tenting with an adult of 40."

 

I tented with a 20 year old last summer. A tiny backpacking tent. No one thought that was creepy. You must live in a strange world, Beaver.

 

 

[shortridge]

Wow. I'd never worked through all the different permutations of the rules. Thanks - I now have a massive headache!

[Bob White]

A frequent tool used by Beavah is peppering the premise with false elements presumed as facts and then basing his conclusion on the faulty premise.

 

Case in point*

"There is no real issue in an over-21 adult who is in college tenting with an over the age of consent adult or minor who is also in college. However, this is allowed in Boy Scouting but not allowed in Venturing." The assumed fact a person over the age of consent is 18 or older when in fact in many states it could be a 17 year old. The other "false fact" that he implies is that the overthe age of consent person in college would have to be 21 and that is false.

 

Can a person in Boy Scouts who is seventeen tent with a person who is 21 as Beavahs example claims? NO he cannot. False premise, false conclusion.

 

Can a a person over the age of 21 in college tent with a person of the same sex who is 21 in venturing. Yes they can, again Beavahs clainm is false because the premise is false.

 

 

"* Some degree of caution should be exercised in having an above-the-age-of-consent high schooler tenting with a middle school student. However, this is allowed in Boy Scouting.

 

Age of consent is not a specific age and in fact varies between states and between sexes. High school and Middle school are not age defined. Also what authority on the matter says that "some concern should be excercised?" In many states a boy seventeen is above the age of consent and a 13 year old can be in the 8th grade. Does anyone here see a problem on a campout with a 17 year old and an 13 year old in a tent?

 

 

"* A considerable degree of caution should be exercised in having a college student tenting with a below-the-age-of-consent high school student. However, this is allowed in Venturing."

 

What exactly does college have to do with this. If a person is not in college but the same age is he more or less prone to the improper behaviour that Beavah hints at? I was a college student at the age of 17. Beavah says that you should excercise caution if a 17 year old tents with a 16 year. REALLY? I never knew that. He says that is allowed in Venturing...oh the horrors! Was he not aware that it is also allowed in Boy Scouts?

 

"* An above-the-age-of-consent college student should not be dating a below-the-age-of-consent minor. However, this is allowed in Venturing.

 

Dating is "allowed" in Venturing? Beavah will have to show us where eaxactly that is in the Venturing program.

 

Who says a college student should not date a below the age of consent minor? The law says they should not have sex, it doesn't say they shouldn't date. Beavah evidently assumes that dating means sex, again a difference of personal ethics.

 

As shown before a 17 year old can be in college, and in many states they are above the age of consent. So a 17 year old cannot date a 16 year old? Where is Beavah getting these rules from?

 

and as a final example...

"* There is no real problem with an over-21 college student dating an under-21 college student. However, this is not allowed in Venturing."

 

REALLY? So Beavah does not think that a 17 year old should date a 16 year old, but he has no problem with a 22 year old dating a 17 year old. Back to a matter of personal ethics I guess.

 

He used very misleading phrases to lead to very false conclusions.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ElyriaLeader]

Thanks for all the replys everyone...seems I'm still in the weeds with this one then as far as trying to convince the palace guard that the venturers are youth until the age of 21.

[BadenP]

Elyria

 

I agree that the age thing in Venturing is really poorly thought out and would not be enforceable in a court of law if for example on a venturing event a 22 year old leader slept with a 20 year old venturer, it would not be considered rape or abusing a minor according to civil law. The only recourse the unit would have would be to dismiss the 22 year old leader, since he did nothing illegal, since both are legal adults, except to ignore a policy of the Venturing program.

 

However as Beavah likes to say "da rules is da rules", and as Venturing leaders we agree to carry them out like them or not or whether they make sense or not. This is probably one reason why some leaders refuse to have a coed crew. Maybe one day National will take another look at this particular rule.

[Gold Winger]

"However as Beavah likes to say "da rules is da rules","

 

Except when he figures that breaking the rules isn't a big deal.

[Beavah]

Yah, a big shout-out there to BobWhite for findin' still more cases and permutations and exceptions, eh? It's a great demonstration of how nutty it is to try to make hard-and-fast rules on this stuff.

 

I was hypothesizin' usin' age of consent as a rough proxy for community mores in a given state. How communities view things in different parts of da country is different, eh? Call it "personal ethics" or local community values or whatever, it affects institutional risk exposure.

 

* Yep, a 17-year-old who is in college would not be allowed to tent with a 21 year-old who is in college in the Boy Scouting program. Or with his 18-year-old college roommate, which is a stitch.

 

* Yep, two persons over the age of 21 can tent together in Venturing, but I didn't reckon that was worth reportin' on. I was naturally referrin' to over-21 and under-21 college students.

 

* Yah, age of consent varies a bit by state. Generally it's about age 16, can be as low as 14. Puttin' a 17-year-old in a tent with an 11-year-old is permissible in Boy Scouting. Might be just fine, eh? But da differences in age and power are of the sort that IMO our institutional exposure to risk is higher. Been plenty enough cases of molestation in camps of that nature to make the point.

 

* There's nuthin' wrong with BobWhite allowin' his 14-year-old daughter to date a college student, eh? Up to BobWhite. In terms of institutional risk management, though, IMO da risks are higher in such a case. Most ordinary folks' personal ethics would frown on it with their daughters, eh? And that matters. Again, there's a presumed difference in power, which is one of da reasons there is an age of consent, eh?

 

* Yep, I have no problem with two college students dating. I don't think that poses real institutional risk, until yeh point out some prodigy who is off in college at age 12 or somesuch, eh??

 

This stuff can drive anyone nuts if yeh try to codify it into hard-and-fast nationwide rules. As we can all see, followin' da rules can land you in trouble sometimes or be silly in others.

 

Good luck with breakin' down the "Palace Guard" ElyriaLeader.

 

Beavah