who's responsibilty

[troopmom]

I am confused about the gray line between boy and adult responsibilities in the Troop. For example, when we plan a campout I recall reading that the boys are to pick where they want to go and what topics they want to cover on the campout but the committee then has to consider it for approval and therefore is responsible for the finances, travel logistics, parent/leadership participation, and supplies(like climbing equipment for a climbing trip). I often butt heads with other adults about this because the boys can't be responsible for the regs. covered in the G2SS. Am I wrong; are the boys supposed to be responsible for everything? I know I read it somewhere that the boys come up with ideas and program but pass off to committee for final logistics.

[eisely]

You should endeavor to make the boys as responsible for as much as they can handle. For example, if the boys want to trek in a fee area where a permit is required, some adult has to be involved. Ideally, a boy would be detailed to work with the adult to make the necessary contacts and reservations. Officials responsible for the site will want the name, address, etc of a responsible adult on the permit, and probably will need a credit card number. A boy cannot provide these things by himself. But there is no reason they cannot participate in the process. Similarly with everything else involved in putting a trek together. The more you allow, encourage, and even require them to do, the more they get out of the experience. It is called developing leadership.

[Fat Old Guy]

BP said something along the lines of "Never do for a boy what he can do for himself."

 

As eisley said, let them handle as much as they can. Most of the time, I say, "Let them worry about their own details." If they forget something, it can be a learning experience for them.

 

Some adults want to micromanage every activity. If I see a glaring problem, like the list for the camp out doesn't include food, I'll try to make them see the omission without stating it explicitly. "Hey guys, what's for dinner the first night?" Too many of the other adults want to just say, "hey guys, you forgot food." Maybe I shouldn't say that much but I also don't want to have to spend a weekend with a bunch of crying and hungry Scouts.

 

The scouts can even worry about logistics. Transportation issues can be handled by a Scout as can supplies for a climbing trip. Maybe an adult needs to check the work but that's minor.

[saltheart]

How much should the boys be responsible for? The ideas already presented spell a lot of that out. But you'll find that what you can expect and not expect will vary with the boys you're working with. For some boys, working on the more 'adult' details of planning an event or trip come naturally. They can easily adapt and understand what is necessary to make things happen. Others will take more patience and leading to learn those ropes, if they learn them at all, and the adults may have to take a larger role. Nothing wrong with that as long as the Scouts do not 'learn' to be depend entirely on the adults for things that they may very well be capable of themselves. They won't know their strengths until they get the chance to try. Much of my thinking on this goes back to my feeling that Scouting is a great place for kids to fail at something, if fail they must, because there's always someone right behind them watching and ready to set them back on their feet and head them in the right direction again. And try again they must, or they become dependent, and competency in their own abilities is something we try to teach them.

[evmori]

The boys should be responsible for as much as they can handle!

[firstpusk]

"The boys should be responsible for as much as they can handle!"

 

Exactly! And the adults should be able to handle staying out of their way to allow the process of self-discovery. Guidance is the key. They don't get this without help - but they won't get it with too much help either.

 

I think it is always advisable to start with a patrol outing. They handle an easy bike or canoe outing. You are involved with the planning to ensure health and safety. Ask them questions and have one of them make a list of what is needed. The patrol leader splits up the work and sets a timeline. I have seen some really neat outings come together in short order this way.

 

It even works for the new patrol if you have an experienced troop guide lead this discovery process. Talk about building self-reliance in the new scouts...

[Rooster7]

I agree with the previous posts.

 

In my experience, it's the self-discovery issue that is the focus of most conflicts between adults. For example, the boys plan a bike outing. Announcements are made at the troop meeting. No one mentions to bring a bike helmet or a water bottle. When does the adult step in? I think I know the answer to this and other similar questions, but there doesn't appear to be universal agreement between Scouters. Some folks draw the line when it comes to issues of safety. I think there are other concerns that should be considered. For example, if the self-discovery process means that others (not just the boy doing the learning) will be significantly impacted. Do you allow a patrol of eight to go without a breakfast on a backpacking trip because the cook didnt plan the meals well? How much, to what extent, do we allow an outing to be ruined for others? Do we allow 5, 10, 15, or 20 boys (who may well know better than the person charge) to suffer for a mistake made by the one?

 

[Bob White]

You will find that the boys can do whatever they are tauaght thow to do and given the opportuniity to do.

 

Certainly there are adult responsibilities that the leaders and committee must fulfill from a legal standpoint. But the boys when properly trained can do almost everything needed witin a troop.

 

But having trained adults teaching the junior leaders is the first step in order for the scouts to succeed.

 

Bob White

[firstpusk]

Training boy leaders to run their troop is the Scoutmasters most important job.

 

Train Scouts to do the job, then let them do it.

 

Somebody alot smarter than me put it better - B.P., of course!

[troopmom]

Okay guys, I'm not talking about menu planning. I'm talking about things like climbing equip. If I let my son on his own, WITHOUT guidance be responsible for rounding up climbing equip. he would get rope from Home Depot. This is where I'm coming from. The past 3 or so trips have been cancelled because "the boys didn't plan it out all of the way." I think that if the boys don't have it planned out then an adult should notice that they may not know how and work with them. My theory is first show them how, then watch them do it, then let them do it on their own. HOWEVER, we had a 50 miler planned down a calm river the scoutmaster had said he could get canoes, campsites planned out, etc. The only problem was not enough adults to go. I don't think 13-15 year old boys can tell adults that they should be sacrificing a little. However, again, when it came down to the wire and they asked about details they were are covered except adults and the trip got cancelled. But the boys got a lecture about how it's their troop and the have to plan for the trips if they don't plan, no trip. The trip was planned for but the parents didn't fulfill their end.

 

Short and sweet---whose RESPONSIBILITY is it for the details. I agree with everything BP said but do you cancel the trip because the plans are lacking or is it the adults responsibility to make sure it gets done through guidance if neccessary. Just letting them plan it has gotten the last three trips cancelled. I think its time for a little showing. With my own, we call together or visit a park ranger together or look up on the computer together until they understand what to ask or look for. I think we adults ( are responsible for making sure the same guidance gets done at the Troop.

 

Oh my gosh this sounds whiney but I firmly believe in show, watch, leave alone but get told "it's the boys troop" even when they are repeatedly failing. Again, who is RESPONSIBLE for making SURE that the details are covered?

 

I'm all for learn by experience. I've let a patrol go hungry for a hour or so past breakfast when the PL didn't get the menu straight but they apparently aren't capable of this much planning yet.

[matuawarrior]

Hello Troopmom,

 

First, I agree with many who previously posted.

 

Second, The final responsiblity lies with the Scoutmaster. Boys can only plan to what they've received in training. Alot of it is guidance as pointed out in previous posts. But if the Boys planned correctly using a checklist than their shouldn't be a problem. You won't be able to catch everything but you'll be able to catch most if you use a checklist.

 

For example, As per rope climbing equipment, the boys should be guided to the expert. In Venturing, we call them consultants. They do the introductory call, make an appointment, request and receive a class from the consultant, and report back to the PLC. THE Scoutmaster is responsible in following up with the SPL and the Scout in charge of that duty to insure that it was actually done. Also a quick call to the consultant, just to touch bases with what's going on. The Scouts don't need to know what the Scoutmaster is doing.

 

As for getting Adults to go on the trip, Now that's the responsibility of the Troop Committee Chairman and who ever is the Activities or Outdoor Coordinator. To tell the Scouts that there are no adults to go on the trip at the last minute is a cop out on the adults part. And to blame it on the Scouts as improper planning??!!! PLEASE!!!! How many SA's does the troop have that no one can go? Parents need to step up.

 

As a Scoutmaster, I'm batting for the Scouts. To plan a High Adventure trip like a 50-miler takes a lot of time and planning, I'm pretty sure the adults had the specifics way before hand. I for one would tell the Scouts the Truth. "We can't go through no fault of your own but because none of the adults want to go".

 

 

Matua

[troopmom]

THANK YOU. Those are my sentiments exactly.

[mk9750]

Troopmom,

 

Now that you've clarified the situation, it is very easy for me to agree with you. The boys SHOULD be responsible for planning. Part of their planning includes advising the appropriate adult what resources they need to make a trip happen. Drivers are resources. Therefore, as long as the youth have advised the proper adult (in our Troop it is the CC), in a timely manner, they have completed that part of the job. For adults to force a trip to be cancelled because they didn't fulfill their responsiblity is assinine.

 

Just a clarification, because you used climbing gear in your example. I am pretty certain that one of the requirments for Climb On Safely is that the BSA Certified Climbing Instructor must maintain control of all climbing gear, and log and monitor its use. This is an example (few as they are) of things that legally adults must do, even though boys might be able to be responsible themselves.

 

And one last point (and I learned this here!). If the outing that was planned was a Patrol event, and the SM approved it, the boys need have NO adults with them. The SM certainly should be sure that all of the boys on the event can handle the situation, and he should be VERY comfortable with the planning, but some outings could be done without adults.

 

The reason I mentioned this was twofold. First, it is a viable alternative. But another idea might be to tell the adults who won't go that the boys could do this trip on their own. You might have a couple of adults decide they ought to make some time.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Mark

[Eagledad]

>>Just letting them plan it has gotten the last three trips cancelled.

[saltheart]

"Even evaluating our performance has to be taught."

 

If you're saying what I think you're saying...it's a very good point. All too often we spend much of our time evaluating the performance of the Scouts, but rarely take the time, as individual leaders or a a group, to do some self-evaluation. Are we setting a good example for the Scouts to follow? Or are we telling and then expecting? Have they understood what we've tried to teach them? Have our teaching methods been just so much Greek to them?

 

The self-evaluation process is not natural for many adults to undertake. As parents, we can fall easily into the "I know everything I need to know" trap. But if the majority of the adult leaders within the troop have taken adult leader training, at any level, they most likely will have been exposed to the process and can lead the untrained through it. It's a valuable undertaking for those who teach and guide. It can insure that the means and methods we use are, indeed, getting the message through to the boys.