Coed Venturing Overnight Activities

[ASM59]

OK, BW... good point.

 

Thanks,

ASM59

[RangerT]

I think some of you are blowing this way out of proportion, on a coed crew overnighter the rule is that you must have minimally one adult male and one adult female and at least one of them must be a registered leader for that crew(from Venturing course at PTC last summer). Ideally you want to have the appropriate number to cover the number of youth participants, in my crew we always have at least two male and two female adult leaders/parents present at any overnighter and usually more. However the rule is one adult male and female leader is required, and no in Venturing the adults do not have to bunk with the youth but be in close proximity to monitor the situation. Bob you surprise me with your interpretation adding to the rule your own personal ideas of the rule. Remember these are guidelines for leaders you are also expected to use common sense as well to make sure the youth are adequately protected.

[Bob White]

No interpretation on my part Ranger. I posted word for word the contents of the Venturing Leaders Handbook.

 

I leave the interpreting to those who would wish that it says something other than what it does.

[Stosh]

Just because something is written in black and white does not always confirm an obvious once and for all time understanding. Thus we call upon interpreation to make sense out of it. As any school teacher, pollster and lawyer can tell us, valid interpretations can be made out of just about any assumed rock solid statement.

 

"During World War II, the US fought with Germany and Japan, but they also fought with England and France." While this statement is valid and true, it takes prior knowledge and interpreation to make any sense out of it. Without such prior knowledge and interpretation, the statement is true but totally worthless.

 

Just because BSA puts some comment into print does not make it rock solid in its meaning/intent. Guide to Safe Scouting... are they guidelines or are they requirements? From the title/name, sure sounds like guidelines to me. Maybe they should have titled it Requirements for Safe Scouting. They didn't. So what did they really mean by what they printed?

 

Simply making statements or quoting reference sources without explanation or meaning is not always producing understanding or knowledge. A statement that produces a valid obvious conclusions for one can produce a totally different valid obvious conclusion for another. Until one is able to fully understand this dynamic of modern language, they will never fully understand neither what they are saying, nor what others are saying either.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

In the Guide to Safe Scouting it says:

Note: Bold type denotes rules and policies.

So, the Guide to Safe Scouting has roles and policies in it. If it was just a guide, then Paintball, parachuting, etc. and everything else on the restricted list would be just a "Guide" and there wouldnt be a paintball issue.

Now, in bold print it says:

Two-deep leadership.Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. (bolded because it is in the Book)

This is found in the section titled Barriers to Abuse In Scouting

Then in the section titled

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

Two-deep leadership:Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.  (bolded because it is in the Book)

Then is struck me, A Venturing Crew need not have a parent along on a trip. outing, or overnight. A Coed overnight Venturing event merely needs a registered BSA member over 21 and a member of the opposite sex over 21

 

 

 

 

[NeilLup]

Are you suggesting that it is possible that in Scouting literature, even the Guide to Safe Scouting that there is an inconsistency, even an error?????? I am shocked, SHOCKED!!!!!

 

Of course, it's possible that there is an error or an inconsistency. Believe it or not, these documents are written by mortal human beings and sometimes, different sections and even different paragraphs are written by different people who aren't able to crosscheck every other word written in every other Scouting document. This particularly can happen when two documents are being revised separately by two different Scouting divisions. They try to coordinate but don't always succeed perfectly.

 

What to do about it? I would write to the National Council pointing out the inconsistency stating that in one place, it appears to say that if only two leaders are on a unit trip or outing, if only one is registered, the other must be parent. In the other place, it appears that the non-registered adult does not need to be a parent. Suggest that the item be clarified. That is how these things get resolved.

 

As a practical matter in a unit, it would seem simplest to have any non-parent be registered. That's not a big problem. And for that matter, to have any parent be registered too. Again, not a big problem.

[OldGreyEagle]

NeilLup, in the section titled "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" it reads:

 

 

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA."

 

Clearly the first two sentences do not involve Venturing Crews, the sentences are:

 

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

 

So, a Venturing Crew need only one registered BSA adult member and another adult, over 21, of the opposite sex for a coed overnight activity

 

(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[John-in-KC]

Beavah has said it more than once here: If you crosswalk the materials Scouting publishes, you will not always get uniform results.

 

We're very lucky: We have a co-ed Crew, with more than enough willing Scouters to cover two-deep and m/f mix. Lord willing, we'll stay that way!

[NeilLup]

Respectfully disagree, OGE.

 

It says ALL. That should mean all.

 

In my reading, the third sentence adds an additional requirement for coed Venturing crews but does not eliminate the "all" of the first sentence.

 

I remember the discussion of a few years ago where it was asked if female leaders on a Boy Scout outing made the outing coed. The specific question was whether it would be permissible to have a Boy Scout outing with only female adults as leaders. Not a discussion of whether it is prudent, only whether it is permissible or whether it would be a "coed" event requiring both male and female leaders.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ahh, but the first sentence says:

 

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings"

 

Now, if I write in a post somewhere that only Venturing Scouts can shoot guns larger than .22's, I know a plethora of posters who will quickly descend upon me and tell me in no uncertain terms what a filthy disgrace I am to Venturing because I should know that there is no such thing as a Venturing Scout. As such, the first sentence does not pertain to Venturing.

 

The second sentence says:

 

"There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

 

Now, since the Patrol Method is not part of Venturing, this cannot be concerned with Venturing. Therefore, there are not non-adult outings in Venturing.

 

That leaves the final sentence:

 

"Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA."

 

And that is what Venturing Crews should follow

[Stosh]

It often concerns me that everyone seems to be stumbling all over each other with the rules. Yes they are critical, but often times create major obstacles to the intent of the program.

 

This past weekend I had a 19 year-old female ask if she could join my crew. Of course it was a great opportunity for her. I said it wouldn't be any problem getting a second adult female to cover the situation. The second stickler was she was considering dating one of the crew leaders she has know for many years. Now it was getting complicated.

 

Easy solution? She joined our CO instead. It cost her less, no registration issues, no youth/leader issues, no male/female issues and she will interact with the crew and CO just like before. The only loser in the situation was the BSA's membership numbers. And of course, until this gal turns 21, other females will continue to join the CO rather than the crew. Membership in the CO starts at 16, less if parent is a member. This is how youth younger than 14 are associated with our crew as well.

 

Stosh