Kodiak Cruise vs. SEAL

[Argyle]

Wonder if the Kodiak syllabus would lend itself for a course conducted on a long cruise of 6 or 7 days on the water? I'm thinking it would. If our mission is to Develop Character and instill values, wouldn't it be wiser to use these tools locally as often as possible to accomplish that mission?

 

Sea Scouts have a seamanship course called SEAL, billed as an advanced leadership course, yet in a program for youths 14-20, they don't want to train 18-20 year olds. Youth who fail to pass a 100 question seamanship exam, a navigation exam, and knot-tying exercise do not receive the training award at the end of the SEAL program, yet it's billed as NOT a Seamanship Course.

 

You have conducted a Kodiak or Kodiak X, how do you think a waterborne Kodiak Course would work out?

 

Gybe ho!

 

 

[emb021]

A waterborne Kodiak course is quite doable. I am aware of Kodiak courses being done on Sea Kayak trips, whitewater rafting trips, am sure it could be done on long canoe trips, so why not a long cruise? So long as you have about 2.5 hours a day for the material, it can be done.

 

While I am not a SEAL instructor, I've talked with our local SEAL CD several times, and have a decent familiarity with the course. Your comments show you really don't understand how the course operates.

 

Yes, SEAL *is* a leadership development course, not a seamanship course. Due to the fact that the ENTIRE course is run 'under sail', with the participates being responsible for sailing, navigating, etc the boat (each day the duties rotate) its VERY important that the participants come to the course ALREADY knowledgable about Ch 2 of the SSM. SEAL is NOT the place to learn this material, which is why SEAL is NOT a seamanship course. Hence the need for the exams and like. There are only a limited number of SEAL courses a year (see below), and so its vital that those Sea Scouts who are truly prepared (completing SEAL and earning the SEAL pin is NOT automatic or a given) are the ones who get selected.

 

I don't know about the reasons for the upper age limit on SEAL, other then I suspect that a big purpose of the SEAL course is to train Sea Scouts who will return to their Ships and pass on what they learn, and prehaps the concern is that the older Sea Scouts are more likely 'on their way out' of the program, then to pass on what they learned in their Ships. (ie, it should be 'one more thing I get before I age out' kind of thing). Maybe Sea Scout leaders with more insite can add to this.

 

Another thing to keep in mind about SEAL is that it is a National Course provided thru approved Regional level courses. There are no more then 5-6 course a year, due to the resources needed (qualified CDs, boats, etc). In comparison, Kodiak, while being a National course, can be put on by a crew/ship themselves (tho I highly recommend that at least one adult involved have gone thru a regional Kodiak/Kodiak X CDC).

 

[Bob White]

"Your comments show you really don't understand how the course operates

 

I am not sure that anything Argyle has said shows that at this point. Perhaps we should find out how many Scouts from the ship he serves has attanded SEAL in the last few years and how many of the different locations they served at.

 

So Argyle have you actually had any scouts attend SEAL?

 

[Argyle]

We serve a program for yutes 14-21. Excluding the 18-21 year olds from participation just seems crazy to me. Our older Scouts are really the heart of the program, they've stuck through the program while all their peers dropped out in high school, they look forward to becoming Mates with the Ship, not looking to get another pin before they age out.

 

None of the older crew seem to be looking for another pin, looking for adventure, yes, but not another pin. If we have active participating youth up to age 21, then we ought to embrace any and all training with them in mind. You talked to the CD, but haven't sent any Scouts to SEAL, why not?

 

We've sent four. One young man said it was all a blur, they all flunked the seamanship exam and spent most of their time cramming into the wee hours for the re-test, getting a few hours of shut-eye. That kinda makes it a seamanship course, IMO, with my limited understanding, of course.

 

If we have 6500-7000 youth in the Sea Scout program, what is the benefit of the "leadership" course if it only serves 20 youth a year?

 

 

[Argyle]

Qualified CD?

 

Where do you find the qualifications to become a Course Director? They are not to be found anywhere on the internet.

[CNYScouter]

I do not see any where in the SEAL documents where it says that 18-20 year olds can not attend.

 

from the SEAL application at:

www.seascout.org/about/program/training_resources/seal.pdf

 

To attend a SEAL class you must be a registered Sea Scout. You must be Ordinary rank by 1 June 2008 and you must study and have a working knowledge of Chapter four of the Sea Scout Manual.

 

If you download the SEAL Power Point presentation in this is says:

The best applicants are about 16 years of age, but there is no specific age requirement.

 

My son really wanted to attend SEAL this summer (he's 16) but getting him the Seamanship skills he needs just isn't going to happen.

I just couldn't find a resource to teach him the Piloting and navigation skills before he could attend this summer.

 

For us (and many northern ships I have met) we just don't have the time on the larger boats that seem to be required to take SEAL.

 

I also think it is hard to get a youth to the rank of Ordinary in two years.

Most of the Sea Scouts I have met that have taken SEAL are usually 17+ when they took it.

 

There is no reason that a waterborne Kodiak Course cant be done.

Take a look at the Kodiak web site: www.kodiak-bsa.org

 

There are 3 or 4 that are doing this while White-water rafting.

I also see some that are going to do this with canoeing.

The Pamlico Seabase in NC is doing this as a Sea Kayaking trek

On the web site see that BRSR is running course with their New River Adventure Program.

 

So I don't see why a course could not be done as a sailing adventure.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

CNY Scouter writes..."I do not see any where in the SEAL documents where it says that 18-20 year olds can not attend."

 

I think I can help show you where they make it obvious that an 18 to 20 year old will have a much harder chance of going.

 

Here is what the "official" info sheet to the ship officers states.

 

"Sea Scouts that wish to apply for SEAL training must be a registered Sea Scout between 14 and 18 years of age although occasionally an older youth might be accepted to fill out a class."

 

So it seems pretty clear that 18 to 20 years olds are only going to be considered to fill seats to meet the budget if needed.

 

Making the course available to 14 olds with the Ordinary Rank is silly. You might as we make NYLT open to 10 1/2 year old Star Scouts.

 

How can a youth become eligible to join at 14 and out of the 8th grade and then complete Apprentice and Ordinary ranks by the end of that same month in order to meet the requirements for SEAL.

 

This course has restricted itself to serving primarily 16 and 17 year olds. So a youth has a two year window out of a 6 to 7 year program to attend a training course that serves 2/10 of 1% of the Sea Scout youth membership each year.

 

Unless the folks that have dominion over the SEAL training allow more councils to offer it, then I would support directing Sea Scouts to a Kodiak X on the water and we will stop promoting SEAL altogether.

[Argyle]

2/10 of one percent....that doesn't make for a successful nationwide training course?

 

So, what's the difference between the SEAL course content and the Kodiaks? I have a Kodiak syllabus, but the SEAL syllabus is nowhere to be found.

[Argyle]

Back to SEAL. If this course is so "top flight" and the resulting leadership training so fantastic, then why isn't the leadership shouting from the mountaintops? We're having Powder Horn Course Director Conferences, we're holding Kodiak Course Director Conferences, why aren't the regions and national holding SEAL Course Director Conferences and promoting it and holding courses?

 

So, why all the secrecy? Is this a leadership course to train and instill values in our youth or some kind of national sea scouter clique? If your organization trained .02 of your target market, do you call that successful? I wouldn't.(This message has been edited by Argyle)

[emb021]

"I have a Kodiak syllabus, but the SEAL syllabus is nowhere to be found."

 

Because the National Sea Scout Committee will only give the SEAL syllabus to SEAL CDs.

 

"If this course is so "top flight" and the resulting leadership training so fantastic, then why isn't the leadership shouting from the mountaintops? We're having Powder Horn Course Director Conferences, we're holding Kodiak Course Director Conferences, why aren't the regions and national holding SEAL Course Director Conferences and promoting it and holding courses?"

 

The National Sea Scout Committee is keeping a tight reign on SEAL courses. Why? Don't know. Would have to think they want to ensure quality. There are no SEAL CDCs. That's not how staff development is done. Instead, to be a future CD, you work on a SEAL course to get your 'creds'.

 

 

 

[CNYScouter]

If we are to look at percentages the same could be said of NYLT.

It doesnt have a much greater percentage than SEAL (at least in my council).

Taking in account that in my council NYLT doesnt run every year it doesnt draw much more than .02 or .03% of total Boy Scouts here.

 

The biggest thing I have against SEAL is the seamanship requirements.

 

On the Venturing side you dont even need VLST to go to Kodiak training.

 

I dont even know if allowing more councils to offer SEAL is going to help as most councils dont have the necessary equipment (a large enough boat) to even run a SEAL course.

 

I would support Kodiak and/or Kodiak X on the water as a way to offer leadership training to a greater number.

 

[Argyle]

The Kodiak and SEAL subject matter can't be much different. If the same people who are holding a tight reign on SEAL are the same who keep a tight reign on the Seabadge course content, than for certain the VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak X course content is much more up-to-date. That being said, I just created a new ticket item for myself this summer of getting all the youth members in the Ship through at least one of the Venturing Leadership Courses, on the water of course. One of our ship's officers has a Nordic Tug, that is pretty roomy and just a fantastic cruiser.

 

So, I guess I understand the SEAL program enough, that I'm not willing to send anymore youth to it.

 

 

[emb021]

"The biggest thing I have against SEAL is the seamanship requirements."

 

Because of the way the course is run, the seamanship requirements are a must. The participants are the ones sailing/piloting the boat, not the staff. The participants are not just passengers.

 

"I dont even know if allowing more councils to offer SEAL is going to help as most councils dont have the necessary equipment (a large enough boat) to even run a SEAL course."

 

Councils don't offer SEAL. It's offered only at the Regional level. AFAIK, the equipment needs are a big reason why there aren't that many courses and its done at the regional level.

 

The National Sea Scout Committee controls both Seabadge and SEAL, fwiw.

 

 

[Eamonn]

We have had two Scouts selected for SEAL in the past couple of years, sadly when the pre-course tests arrived, both felt that they just were not really ready to take the course.

I'm of course willing to take my share of any lack of preparations or skill training that I failed to provide.

I also kinda think I was guilty of wanting them to attend more than maybe they wanted too!!

 

I have got to meet 3 of the Scouter's who are very active in serving as Skipper for SEAL.

All are very nice guys.

All are very talented seamen.

My main gripe is that the course is listed as a Leadership Course and while of course by the Scouts doing what they do on the course they do lead, but it does seem that the Seamanship required does overshadow the leadership training.

While I have heard that one course is done on a motor boat, the other five courses are only offered on sailing boats.

I did talk with a member of the National Sea Scout Committee and he was trying to see if a River Course might be offered.

The Sea Scouts I have spoken to who have attended have all said that they had a great time and learned a lot, but maybe I should mention that they all belong to Ships where the Skipper is also a SEAL Skipper.

This year I'm not pushing the course, none of the Scouts we have seem that interested, some think it's just too much like hard work.

I still would like to see a few Scouts attend and return with the full story.

Eamonn.

[Argyle]

Why don't you come and spend a long weekend with us Eamonn. We've got several US Sailing instructors just waiting for you and your crew.