Venturing Youth Protection

[OldGreyEagle]

So the Fraterization portion of the Venturing Youth protection can be not "ignored" but understood. So, then when cooking with Beer on a Troop activity, I understand I will cook out all the alchohol so its ok to use.

[John-in-KC]

Why are we pole vaulting over mouse turds? I've not seen anything in the training (and I re-took Venturing YP online at My Scouting recently) that says do not use your common sense.

 

You try to group folks in natural brackets as far as possible. Sometimes, you may be limited by facilities, especially if your bed-down is in a hard facility (camp staffs are one example). We're regulated to provide at least 4 groupings when we're co-ed. Even so, we're to use our heads. If we need 6 bed-down groupings, do it.

 

If you have an oddball situation (young people who have wed early), contact your SE and ask for a read on the situation. We're going through the post re-charter "contact every dropped kid" phase. SE's won't voluntarily lose a youth program member they don't have to.

 

Can we all go have a cup of coffee at the campfire please?

[Beavah]

Yah, did I miss somethin' about beer and brats? Nuthin' wrong with cooking with beer or wine (several scouts I know do a great bordelaise). The alcohol content evaporates out very quickly (dat's why a still works, eh?), well before whatever you're cookin' is done.

 

ScoutMKE shows how hard it is to write a single policy that makes sense about this stuff, eh? His has several holes in it, too, like 17- and 18-year old crew or ship members who are fellow high school seniors sharin' a tent is just fine (and might be necessary sharin' a berth on a long cruise), or when there's a large single bunking hall and yeh have to mix genders. And then yeh get into siblings, like a brother and sister sharin' a tent with dad. Oi!

 

Da two principles are:

No situations that would raise eyebrows or could lead to substantive accusations of impropriety.

Appropriate "distance" on trips between responsible leaders and those they are leading.

 

Everything else is just efforts to define those two principles for a particular circumstance.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

Isn't trying to justify hypocracy fun?

 

Being 18 means you are an adult, except in Venturing. Cubbing and Scouting yes, but not Venturing.

 

Bunking 20 year olds with 14 year olds is ok, except in Scouting and Cubbing....

 

18 year old Scouts can be the second adult in Scoutiong and Cubbing but not Venturing.

 

Every time someone has to give an exception to a rule it means there's something wrong with the rule in the first place.

 

I'm thinking BSA has done this to make sure everyone is totally confused. :^)

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

In my neighborhood the speed limit is 30 miles and hour. In one of the other Mate's neighborhood the sped limit is 25 miles and hour. Same car, same town, same people, different limits.

 

I guess some people might be confused by that but here is what I do. When I'm in my neighborhhod I follow the law for my street. When I am in the other neighborhood I follow the law for that street.

 

Hypocritical, no, just a different speed limit.

 

When I am on a Boy Scout activity I follow the rules for Boy Scouting, When I am on a Venturing activity I follow the rules for Venturing.

 

Why is this such an issue? Different program, different rules.

[ScoutOne]

Beavah writes:

>>Nuthin' wrong with cooking with beer or wine (several scouts I know do a great bordelaise) ---

 

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits alcohol in any activity involving participation of youth members. There is no exception if you are cooking with it.

 

 

Beavah writes:

 

>>ScoutMKE shows how hard it is to write a single policy that makes sense about this stuff, eh? His has several holes in it, too, like 17- and 18-year old crew or ship members who are fellow high school seniors sharin' a tent is just fine (and might be necessary sharin' a berth on a long cruise), or when there's a large single bunking hall and yeh have to mix genders. And then yeh get into siblings, like a brother and sister sharin' a tent with dad. Oi! ---

 

I am not sure were you are going. 17- and 18-year individuals are not allowed to share the same tent. As mentioned single bunking arrangement would be inappropriate for both genders.

 

 

jblake47 writes:

>>18 year old Scouts can be the second adult in Scoutiong and Cubbing but not Venturing.---

 

An 18 year old may be the second adult in all BSA programs, including Venturing.

 

 

 

You may find the "Youth Protection & Adult Leadership" section of the Guide to Safe Scouting helpful. This applies to all BSA programs. http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

[Beavah]

Yah, MKE. There are different ways to interpret these things, eh? Here's some alternatives for consideration:

 

* Most of us read da guidelines in such a way that a 17 and an 18 year old in Venturing certainly can share the same tent. I know Irving does. They are both youth members. More importantly, they are peers in the eyes of the wider world that judges us on these things.

 

* Units are confronted by single-room bunking arrangements all the time, from large one-room cabins to sleepin' on the church floor while travelin' to stayin' on decomissioned naval warships to sleeping out under the stars to participatin' in international scouting where large "whole group" tents are often da norm. Just the way it is, and really not a big deal. Yeh just separate in a way that makes sense and act reasonably. Risk management-wise, a unit isn't goin' to run into much of an issue with everyone sleepin' together, it's when da wrong folks are sleepin' in separate quarters that there can be issues.

 

* Da BSA doesn't allow the use (aka consumption) of alcohol at events by participants, in the same line as it prohibits the illicit use of controlled substances and right next to where it bans the use of tobacco when youth members are present.

 

But we attend and even host Native American events and pseudo-ceremonies where tobacco is "used" ritually as a gift, and we certainly allow da use of controlled substances as medically necessary. Alcohol, too, for that matter - from cleanin' CPR dummies to a shot of Nyquil to that bottle of vanilla extract for the dutch oven cake. A small bottle of cooking sherry held and used only for cookin' isn't a problem unless it's a problem for da CO or individual. There certainly are COs and individuals who view da use or presence of any alcohol (or caffeine) as inappropriate, and that should be respected.

 

* And finally, an 18 year old can only register in Venturing as a youth member, not as an adult, eh? So for Venturing, most of us read the rule as requirin' two "program adults." I've never heard it interpreted the way you suggest, but it's interestin'. I personally wouldn't recommend it to folks. The point of two deep is to have two experienced hands available to deal with problems, eh? Like what happens if a leader becomes injured or ill? Or the registered leader has to accompany a member to the hospital? Counting an 18-year-old crew member as an adult in a context where he/she is really a peer participant doesn't make sense to me.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

Gotta love it BW!

 

If your 14 year old daughter (Crew youth, freshman in high school) was hanging out with a 20 year old boy (Crew youth, sophomore in college) I'm sure the BSA rules will go right out the window! BSA doesn't operate in a vacuum. It operates in a world of different legal rules and when all is said and done and you're standing in front of a magistrate, the BSA rules sound rather foolish if not totally irrelevant. The speed limit in your area may mean one thing, but the only thing that really counts is who's writing the ticket. Supporting hypocracy works until your own ox gets gored.

 

Stosh

[ScoutOne]

Beavah,

 

I am sorry you do not like some of the guidelines. It is very easy for someone to rationalize one thing because of another.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting does a good job at communicating the ("da") guidelines for youth protection and maintaining leadership standards. Most of the guidelines are common sense and there are no "ifs or buts".

 

If you do have questions about the guidelines, I encourage you to contact your District Executive. You may also consider reading the section in the Guide to Safe Scouting or taking the offline youth protection course so you have a chance to address your questions.

(This message has been edited by ScoutMKE)

[Gold Winger]

"If your 14 year old daughter (Crew youth, freshman in high school) was hanging out with a 20 year old boy (Crew youth, sophomore in college) I'm sure the BSA rules will go right out the window!"

 

So you're saying that you'd approve of them sharing a tent?

 

 

[Bob White]

Again, we Don't have 14 year olds and 20 year olds "hanging around" a lot together. For the most part our older scouts operate different boats than our younger scouts. They certainly aren't rooming together.

 

Yes they do some things as a group bt not a lot of things.

 

Different program activities for differnet ages and stages of development.

[Stosh]

"Again, we Don't have 14 year olds and 20 year olds "hanging around" a lot together. For the most part our older scouts operate different boats than our younger scouts. They certainly aren't rooming together.

 

Yes they do some things as a group bt not a lot of things.

 

Different program activities for differnet ages and stages of development."

 

Honorably spoken from a single point of view, unfortunately not every Venturing Crew in the BSA program falls under the auspices of your tutelage or programming. There are Venturing Crews out there that DO have 14 and 20 year olds hanging out together. Like I said, your neighborhood isn't the same as everyone elses so it makes it difficult to speak a word of expertise in an area in which one is totally inexperienced with. Once you get your ox gored, you'll understand better. And be sure to read more carefully, no where do my comments about hanging around have anything to do with rooming together.

 

Same suggestion for Gold Winger, just because kids hang around the mall on a Saturday afternoon doesn't mean they are bunking/tenting together.

 

Funny how one finds it expedient to jump to such a conclusion.

 

I do believe the youth protection for even the Venturing program makes accomodations for such separation. It's a lot easier to take one's comments with a bit more seriousness if they aren't so blatantly ridiculous.

 

But it does point out one thing. A 14 year old girl and 20 year old boy hanging around together does seem to strike a nerve. Welcome to the co-ed Venturing program of the BSA.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Gold Winger]

I'm just baffled why you say the BSA rules will go right out the window.

 

Back in my youthful days, my church youth group had members from the 7th grade through college age and one or two adult advisors. The whole lot of us went on trips together with nary a problem. Mostly the groups broke down by age with mixing happening for things like singing off key or the daily poker fest.

 

Maybe it was a simpler time but no one worried about the 20 year old guys trying to seduce the 14 year old girls. If anything, it was the 14 year old guys trying to convince the 20 year old girls that we were studly enought to warrant their attentions. It must have been rather comical.

 

[Stosh]

I have been working with church and BSA co-ed groups for over 30 years now and I know most of the dynamics of what makes things work the way they do.

 

I never said the rules would or should go out the window, but I did say that a father finding out that his 14 y/o daughter was hanging out with a 20 y/o college student may indeed bypass most civilized rules (including any the BSA may have in place) to correct the situation. :^)

 

I know why BSA walks this thin line of 18-20 y/o's in the youth program. Because of the complexity of some Venturing programs, they cannot develop their goals in just 4 years so a 2 year extension was added. This however, does not sync with the world around us and thus causes some consternation and hypocracy on the part of most people. Some units have worked around this by internally segregating their members into different age/program focuses, but not all Crews can do that. This tightrope walk is indeed rather hypocritical with some of the rules they have to impose to cover their butts. Just because the BSA calls them youth, the world around them calls them adults. It's not like two different places with different rules, it's the same place with different rules, one for the world, one for BSA.

 

My Crew program cannot be broken down into differing age groups with differing focuses. Everyone from 14 to 65+ all have the same activity. There is nothing in the whole program that would allow for any internal segregation. The separation we provide is natural to the experience, but the daily activity allows for the interaction of crew members not only amongst themselves, but also adults of all ages. Fortunately for me it's been a while since we have had any females in the group, but they have come and gone over the years and we are always open to their participation.

 

I walk the tightrope along with the BSA every time the Crew meets. I spend a lot of time with education, developing trust, sleeping with one eye open, and hoping the Crew is up to the task. It's complicated and involved, and simplistic answers just don't cut it.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Sorry, I'm with GW on this one.

 

"If your 14 year old daughter (Crew youth, freshman in high school) was hanging out with a 20 year old boy (Crew youth, sophomore in college) I'm sure the BSA rules will go right out the window!"

 

"I never said the rules would or should go out the window, but I did say that a father finding out that his 14 y/o daughter was hanging out with a 20 y/o college student may indeed bypass most civilized rules (including any the BSA may have in place) to correct the situation. :^)"

 

 

As you can see, you DID indeed state "the BSA rules will go right out the window". Your explanation did little to clear things up for me.

 

Are you saying that this hypothetical father did not know what the membership ages for Venturing youth are when he registered his 14 year old daughter? Are you then stating that this father would either take his daughter out of Venturing or cause physical harm to come to a 20 year old boy for doing activities with his daughter? Also, why stop at a 20 year old young man? Why would this upset father allow his daughter to go on any activities, much less any overnighters, with men who are 21+ years old? Why would that extra year, or 2, or 10, or more, make him any more comfortable with these men "hanging out" with his daughter?

 

I'm sorry, but for me your "problem" scenario just does not hold any water. If you are signing your child up to participate in a program, then you usually know what that program is, who it's members are, what the programs rules are, and you make sure that there is proper supervision.

 

If you have no clue what you are signing your child up for, and are horrified when you find 14 and 20 year olds of opposite sexes are doing things together, then the problem is the parent, not necessarily the program.

 

I'm not sure what the co-ed groups that you have been involved in for 30 years are doing together, but as a parent, I would have no problem with my 14 yo daughter attending Venturing activities with 20 yo boys.

 

Personally, I would have a MUCH bigger problem with my 14 yo daughter "hanging out" with her classmates older brother, in someones home, without any parental supervision at all!