Is a ship a crew?

[Oak Tree]

I've seen various references that talk about how Sea Scouting is part of Venturing, like a sort of specialized crew. In some places it seems to indicate they are almost exactly a crew (e.g. they can all earn all the same awards), and in other places it seems very different.

 

So, as a simple basic test for this, can there be two separate units Ship 123 and Crew 123? Or can there only be one Venturing unit with a given number? I know there can be Pack 123, Troop 123, Team 123, and Crew 123, but the same CO could not then charter, for example, a second pack with the same number. So would a ship in that case be a second Venturing crew that requires a separate number?

[Crew21_Adv]

Oak Tree and Fellow Venturers,

 

I've thought of that also. Although our SeaScouts, BSA have followed Venturing advancement recently, they still seem to be a separate unit.

 

A fellow Scouter had told me to check out the Scouting forms, while we were debating this same topic. We discussed, maybe there is more insurance involved with a Ship (or Venturing Sea Scout activities, beyond Venturing high adventure).

 

If you look under the Scouting.org/forms

 

The New Youth Application, New Adult Application, New Unit Application and Unit Advancement Report have the ability to select Ship.

 

Although, the Venturing youth should be able to earn the awards across the Venturing spectrum. I guess the Venturers and Unit needs to be registered as either a Crew or a Ship.

 

IMHO. The way I read it then. A Chartering Organization may charter a Pack, Troop, Team, Crew, Ship, and even a Post. All using the same number.

 

Now, another hypothetical issue. What would happen if the same COR wanted to charter multiple post for Medical Explorers, Aviation Explorers, Fire Safety Explorers, and Law Enforcement Explorers? They would all be Explorers, although career paths may be difficult. The COR may need Post(s) with separate unit numbers.

 

 

Hope this helps... (If not confuse it more..lol)

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Bob White]

Ship is a separate registration selection than Crew for both youth and adult members.

 

Post and Explorer are not available selections on the adult or youth BSA membership application since a Post is not a part of the traditional BSA but is part of Learning for Life, a separate corporation.

 

Yes, a sponsor for multiple Posts would have a separate Post number for each group.

 

 

 

[emb021]

A Sea Scout Ship is nothing more then a specialized Venturing Crew. To be a Sea Scout Ship, Crews must register with speciality code 1208.

 

Every Ship is really a Venturing Crew. Every Sea Scout is really a Venturer. Thus its silly to speak of a dual registering a Ship as a Crew. A Ship is ALREADY a Crew.

 

Thus, any Sea Scout is free to earn any Venturing award. The reverse is not so.

 

This is also why Sea Scout leaders must complete basic training for Venturing adults along with Sea Scout Specialized training before they can be considered basic trained.

 

[John-in-KC]

Sea Scouting is the one form of "older youth" Scouting which has worked constantly across the years.

 

Because it works, the BSA National Council allowed it "brand identity" as Venturing has ramped up within Irving.

 

For corporate management purposes, Sea Scouting IS Venturing. For certain program purposes, Sea Scouting looks and feels "a bit" different from Venturing.

 

If you look at publications like Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088, Sea Scouting is covered with the overall set of the Venturing program.

 

Does that make sense?

[Bob White]

Perhaps a close though not exact comparison is the relationship between Varsity Teams and Boy Scout troops. Though Varsity is a part of Boy Scouts it is a separate unit with separte charters and memberships. But Varsity Scouts can earn Boy Scout Ranks and recognitions even though Boy Scouts cannot earn the Varsity recognitions without being on a Varsity Team.

 

The relationship of Sea Scouting to Venturing and Venturing to Boy Scouting is similar in nature especially for boys entering Venturing/Sea Scouting after earning first Class Rank in a Troop.

 

The relationship between Venturing ans Sea Scout has had its political turmoil, and while the relationship is still not a perfect one things are settling down. Largely due I feel to the stability of Sea Scouting and the relative chaos of Venturing.

 

Sea Scouting is only one year younger than the Boy Scout program, it went from a stand alone division, to part of Exploring, to a stand alone division, to a relationship with Venturing. And many of the volunteers from the Ships through the National Sea Scout Committee preferred being an independent Division.

 

So it has taken them awhile to get comfortable in the new relationship. But I think most trained leaders in both programs now have an understanding of how the two relate, and how to make the best use of each program.

 

I know when I took our Regions Powderhorn Course Director Development course a couple years ago the majority of the participants were from the Sea Scout Program.

 

 

[emb021]

The relationship of Sea Scouting to Venturing is not quite the same as Varsity Scouts and Boy Scouts. Yes, Varsity Scouts are just a program within the Boy Scout Program Division, but Varsity Scouts are seen as separate units entirely from Boy Scouts (tho they pretty much share the same program). Sea Scouting, while a separate program within Venturing, are not so broken out within the Division. ALL Sea Scout Ships are really Venturing Crews (just registered as speciality 1208) and all Sea Scouts are Venturers.

 

Some other facts.

 

Sea Scouts were established in 1912. The Sea Scout Division was soon formed in the 1920s. Around 1935, the Sea Scout Division was expanded to become the Senior Scout Division, and from that point on, Sea Scouts was just one program within the Senior Scout Division, which later became the Explorer Division in 1949. It has from that day on been a program within a larger division, which continues to this day, except its part of Venturing. There has been times when Sea Scouts (or Sea Explorers, as it was known from 1949 to 1998) was treated like a red-headed step child. I think that its only been due to the strong council-area-regional-national committees that existed in Sea Scouts that the program has been able to survive. (I feel that the absense of a similiar structure in Venturing in many places is why the program flounders...)

 

While there are some within Sea Scouts that would prefer they be more separate from Venturing, the fact remains that Sea Scouts are part of Venturing. The National Sea Scout Committee us but a subcommittee of the National Venturing Committee.

 

[Bob White]

Yes, a similar relationship but not exactly the same.

[Eamonn]

Just to add to the confusion.

Sometime about a year ago, a Lad who was a Venturer was past by a District BOR for Quartermaster Rank.

This for one reason or another didn't go over very well with some of the Sea Scouter's.

They claimed that only a Sea Scout can earn Quartermaster Rank.

But a Sea Scout can earn all the Venturing Awards.

I'm not sure but I did hear that a group got together and combed through the Sea Scout Manual to see what was what?

In the end it the Lad didn't get the Rank. (I wasn't part of any of this!!)

I really like the Sea Scout program.

While the Manual is in dire need of an update.

The people that I have met who are involved in Sea Scouting are a great bunch.

There have been Venturering units at some of the Sea Scout events I have attended and from what I've seen they have been made feel welcome.

Eamonn.

[emb021]

There is only confusion if people don't get it.

 

Every Sea Scout is a Venturer. But not every Venturer is a Sea Scout.

 

To be a Sea Scout requires that you be registered in a Sea Scout Ship, which is just a Venturing Crew registered as a Ship.

 

This is why every Sea Scout can earn all Venturing advancement, but only Sea Scouts can earn Sea Scout advancement.

 

If this was a Venn diagram, Sea Scouts would be a small circle totally within a larger circle for Venturing.

[Secret DE]

YES.

 

Secret DE

[Bob White]

If it were viewed in 3-D Venturing would be flat disc and Sea Scouting a pillar standing within the circle.

 

But thank Emb021, it's funny how some are willing to attack one person's understanding of the program but not two. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Venturers and Sea Scouters,

 

 

So back to Oak Trees question...

 

Can a Ship and Crew share the same COR and number? Or must the younger (or more recently chartered) ship or crew have a new number?

 

 

Specialty code or not. I understood them to be separate units, and may share the exact same number.

 

Bottom line. Can they share the same number or not?

 

Crew21 Adv

[Bob White]

Yes, they would be able to do that if they chose to but as Emb021 pointed out there would be no need for two units such as that.

 

A Sea Scout is a specialized form of a crew (but a crew is not a form of a ship) so some members of the ship could choose to follow a Sea Scout track while others followed a Venturing track. Or they could all follow both, for instance during boating season follow Sea Scouting and in the off-season do Venture activities in the other Venture Program areas.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[emb021]

If a Charter Organization wants to charter a separate Ship and a Crew, I guess they can share the same number. I am not an expert in how councils handle registration, but would think they would allow that.

 

Back in the 'old days', it was quite possible (and something that was encouraged) that a charter org would have the 'whole scouting family' of Pack, Troop, Post and Ship.