Making Eagle in a crew..

[Beavah]

So the rules only apply if they are convenient.

 

Nah, the rules apply only when they serve their just purpose and meet the common sense test.

 

The gang is right that ACP&P assigns BOR responsibility to the Ship Committee. BobWhite is right in that yeh just can't think of Irving as one coherent brain or even assume it has good editors for every publication. And the different publication schedules mean there's always something that's behind. In this case, it might be Bob's Sea Scout manual.

 

But then yeh gotta understand the way things really work. Sea Scouts are sorta their own division, eh? They're only partially incorporated into Venturing, and that's because they've had a strong "independent" (civilly disobedient?) streak for many many years, dating back to when National tried to kill the program like it killed Air Scouts. So they sort of are responsible for their own program, and anybody who's seen a truly active ship has to admire 'em for it.

 

In Sea Scouting, I expect it just makes more sense for the Bridge of Review to handle the rank advancement, eh? Since the Bridge handles all of the rank advancement. Better fit with da program, better experience for all the youth.

 

Though I reckon it is fun catchin' poor old BobWhite in another program tweak.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

"Nah, the rules apply only when they serve their just purpose and meet the common sense test."

 

Who decides what is or isn't commons sense?

[Bob White]

Gosh Beav at least GW is willing to read the manul before he makes up his mind. Your just so exited to catch me or the BSA program doin something wrong your willing to make the judgement without checking.

 

My manual is current, as is the Sea Scout training that says the same thing. Which policy applies? In Boy Scouts I would use what is in the Boy Scout training and resourses. In Cub Scouts, the Cub Training and resources. in Sea Scouting, the Sea Scout Training and resources.

 

But you have to take the time to learn them if you are gonna use em eh?

 

 

[RangerT]

Well I just read pg 83, par 3-5 and it does state, " there is first a skippers conference then the application is forwarded to the ship's bridge of review made up of members from the ships quarterdeck and the ship committee." "If the badge is quartermaster or eagle the application must be approved also by by the ship committee and the district or council advancement committee before it is sent on to National."

 

We do something similiar in our crew, officers and crew committee members serve on review boards together.

[Beavah]

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

 

Yah, yeh know...

 

I was actually supporting you, BobWhite.

 

I'll be sure not to do that again, eh?

 

So, if yeh want to be formal:

 

* Star, Life, and Eagle are Boy Scout Program Awards

* The current Boy Scout Requirements book is the official source for all Boy Scout Program Requirements

* The Boy Scout Requirements book clearly states that BOR's are to be conducted by the Ship Committee.

* No unit is permitted to add or subtract from the requirements.

* The Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures booklet provides guidelines which apply to all program divisions.

* Sea Scouting, despite its independent character, is a Venturing Division program and Sea Scouts register as Venturers.

* ACP&P clearly states that Star and Life Boards of Review are to be conducted by the Ship Committee.

* Sea Scouting does not get to determine how Boy Scouting program requirements are to be interpreted.

 

Oh, yah, and BTW, yeh didn't get the earlier bit right either, eh? Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer. So Venturers in a crew can earn Sea Scouting recognitions just as Sea Scouts in a ship can earn Venturing Recognitions like Silver or Ranger. Sea Scoutin' ain't "unique" in the way you describe.

 

If yeh want to be formal.

 

I reckon most folks just do what makes sense for their units and da kids in 'em, as RangerT describes.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

Beavah writes "Oh, yah, and BTW, yeh didn't get the earlier bit right either, eh? Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer."

 

That is also incorrect.

Quartermaster is a rank and can only be earned by Venturers who are registered as Sea Scouts, and complete the preceeding ranks or Apprentice, Ordinary, and Able.

 

I you read the Venturing Handbook it defines Quartermaster as "the highest rank in Sea Scouting (See the Sea Scout Manual)"

 

A Sea Scout is in Venturing, but a Venturer is not a Sea Scout.

 

A Venturer who is not a Sea Scout cannot earn any Sea Scout Rank.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Sea Scouts like to think that, eh? And yeh gotta love their in-the-BSAs-face hudzpah sometimes.

 

But my words were an exact quote out of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures.

 

Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer - #33088D, p. 39

 

To return to my real point, though, I don't much care for quibbling over such minutia, fascinatin' as it can be. I think if a skipper and a Ship Committee think doing a Bridge of Review is the way they'd like to handle Star and Life in order to be consistent with Sea Scout advancement procedures, that's a reasonable call on their part. If a different Ship opts to do the Board of Review by the Committee, that's fine, too.

 

We're a franchise that's about serving kids, not serving hamburgers.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

I would agree that any male or female Venturing member can earn Quartermaster, just as any boy can earn Eagle IF they meet the BSA prescribed requirements.

 

But to do so they have to go through the Sea Sout Rank advancement. Unlike Ranger which is a stand-alone award, Quartermaster is a rank.

 

Like with Eagle you cannot skip ranks, you must go through the progressions. In order to earn the Sea Scout ranks you must be registered as a Sea Scout,(see Apprentice requirements 1 and 3, Ordinary requirements 3-5, Able requirements 3&4).

 

While Sea Scouts are Venturers the registration for Crew and Ship are separate, the advancement requirementss say you must be a part of a Ship.

 

Any Venturer can earn Quartermaster if they meet all the advancememnt requirements.Read requirement 3 and 5 for the Quartermaster rank and you will see that membership in a ship as well as the completion of the preceeding ranks is a requirement.

 

There is nothing in the Venturing Handbook of Venturing training that makes Quartermaster available to a Venturer who is not a member of a Ship, There is nothing in the Sea Scout Manual or training that makes Quartermaster available to a Venturer who is not registered in a Ship.

 

So that would leave the rank available to any person that met the requirements, just as with any other BSA rank. The requirements for QM say you have to be a member of a Ship, therefore ...a Sea Scout.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

LOL

 

Yah, dat's novel, eh?

 

O'course, by that rationale, Sea Scouts can't award Star or Life despite what ACP&P says. After all, requirement #1 for Star and Life is "be active in your troop and patrol". Therefore, you must be registered in a troop, and, ergo, not pursuing Boy Scouting Advancement in a Sea Scout Ship.

 

Just isn't the way it works. All of the Venturing awards - Silver, Ranger, Quartermaster, Quest, etc. can be earned by any Venturer.

 

Though I do recognize this is an area where Venturing Division of the BSA and some Sea Scouters have disagreements.

 

Personally, I think lads and lasses interested in Quartermaster get a much better experience pursuin' it in a Sea Scout Ship. But in many parts of the country Sea Scouts are as rare as feathers on cows, eh? And a crew might well take up adventure sailing for a superadventure for a year that puts 'em in the path of the road to Quartermaster. We don't stand in the way of kids doing good things.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

"O'course, by that rationale, Sea Scouts can't award Star or Life despite what ACP&P says. After all, requirement #1 for Star and Life is "be active in your troop and patrol". Therefore, you must be registered in a troop, and, ergo, not pursuing Boy Scouting Advancement in a Sea Scout Ship."

 

If it weren't for the overwhelming amount of information eplaining that once a Scout has arned Fiorst Class in a troop he can continue to earn the upper three ranks as a member of a Venturing Crew or a Sea Scout Ship, including Scoutmaster training, Venturing Leader training, Sea Scout leader training, The venturing leaqder Handbook, the Sea Scout Leader handbook, to name just a few.

 

But getting back to what started this. You said that the committee did the board of review on a ship and I said that the process on a ship was different, and there has been ample evidence to show that 'eh'.

 

 

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

The only conceivable reason for this statement

Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer is to indicate that you don't have to be registered in a ship in order to get it.

 

But congratulations, Bob, on the most tortured reading of the day. I know the irony is lost on you, but the rest of us do find it odd that you normally quote the regulations at everyone else, but twist them to your own liking when they disagree with you.

 

I would find it very odd for the Quartermaster Award to be earned in a crew, but hey, since we're arguing over the letter of the rule, the answer seems pretty clear.

 

Please, whatever you do, don't admit you're wrong. It would be so inconsistent.

[Bob White]

Oak Tree here is what I've shared based on the Sea Scout manual and the Sea Scout Leader training as well as Venturing training and the Venturing manuals. You tell me whaty is incorrect.

 

1) The advancement review process in Sea Scouts is different than what it is in Boy Scouts and Venturing.

 

2) To earn Quartermaster you have to complete the rank requirements of the three preceeding ranks which include participation in activities that are specific to a Sea Scout Ship.

 

3) Ships and Crew although both divisions of Venturing are not the same, and have separate registrations according to the BSA membership applications.

 

If the Advancment Guide is correct in listing QM with awards that any Venturer can earn, then that is not supported in any Venturing or Sea Scout training or program resource or any other BSA program training or advancement resource.

 

Just as when the Cub Scout Leader Book and Den Chief Handbook said that the Scoutmaster chose the Den Chief, the problem here is likely the failure to communicate between Scouting Divisions. A problem within scouting that I have often agreed existed. But this statement appears in only one location, but information to the contrary exists in multiple locations.

 

What has your training in Venturing or Sea Scouting said about this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[emb021]

By and large what the ACP&P says is correct, I have found some areas where its wrong. One is its statement that the Sea Scout Bronze (really the Sea Scout Ordinary rank) is 'half of Quartermaster' (a statement which echo's the relationship of Outdoor Bronze and Ranger). This is incorrect, as Ordinary, as the 2nd Sea Scout rank is half WAY to Quartermaster, NOT half of Quartermaster.

 

Another error is that any Venturer can earn Sea Scout advancement. Incorrect. Only Sea Scouts (Venturers registered in Sea Scout Ships, Venturing Crews using speciality code 1208) may earn Sea Scout advancement.

 

[Oak Tree]

emb021, thanks for explaining your understanding. I think that makes sense, although it is in general hard to tell under what circumstances we'd have to accept that the ACP&P is wrong.

 

Bob White's description of how the sentence meant exactly the opposite of what it appeared to say - that was something that didn't make any sense to me. Your description, that the ACP&P simply has it wrong, is much more reasonable to my mind. And your position makes some sense.

 

But can the ACP&P really be wrong? Or is it right by definition?

 

The funny thing is, both Beavah and I tend to argue in favor of using good judgement and would never actually complain about this in real life. It's just always good to know what the "official" answer is before you go about applying judgement on top of that.

[John-in-KC]

Oak Tree,

 

In Christianity, one key element of doctrine is "Scripture checks Scripture."

 

As Beavah has noted time and again, the writer-editors at National do not always cross-check program materials.

 

I'd like to know how many Districts/Councils are out there without a Sea Scouting Ship, which have submitted a Quartermaster award on a non Sea-Scouting Venturer???

 

More importantly, I wonder if the National Office caught those submissions and returned them...?