Making Eagle in a crew..

[Gold Winger]

"Yah, yeh know. BSA program materials are meant to be read and applied in context, not in isolation. They're a help to units and developing youth; they shouldn't be an obstacle."

 

So the rules only apply if they are convenient.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Bob White responded to Beavah with:

"The Crew Committee does the bor"

Not sure if that is true in Venturing, I'd need to check, but it's not true in Sea Scouting.

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You know, Bob, If you attend Venturing Leader Specific Training, you would have the answer on how a Venturer/Sea Scout gets a Boy Scout Division BOR!

 

It's also in the 2007 edition of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA 33088, page 38:

 

"Position of responsibility requirements may be met by the Venturer serving as president, vice president, secretary, or treasurer in his crew, or as boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, pursor, or storekeeper in his ship.

 

"The Scoutmaster conference will be conducted by the ADvisor or Skipper.

 

"As the Venturer meets the requirements for the Star and Life ranks, a board of refiew is conducted by the crew or ship committee (emphasis added). The Eagle board of review follows the procedure established by the local council."

 

Bob, are you telling us your Ship is not following established and settled BSA policy as regards Boy Scouting (vice Venturing Awards or Sea Scouting ranks which have crew reviews specified on pp 36-37, or the Sea Scout Quartermaster award which specifies a Ship Committee review with District Advancement representation on p38) ranks???(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Bob White]

Sorry, I have been on the road all day. Just because I do not post does not mean I am ingnoring the thread, there are times when I have other things in my life.

 

Yes, I have taken and taught Venturing training. But Venturing, except for the Sea Scout division has no advancment program, so there is no procedure covered in the training for rank advancement. That is why the rank bors are assigned to the committee.

 

Sea Scouting on the other hand has a rank advancment system and so there is a procedure and it does not include the unit committee, other than for reporting the advancement on the advancment report to the council.

 

As far as the Eagle Scout process, that is decided by the council advancment committee in accordance with the policies of the BSA, and so the process may vary slightly from council to council.

 

So if your council decides that the unit committee is involved then that would be the correct process in your council.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

Sorry Bob, you're trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

[John-in-KC]

Ahhh, Bob...

 

Nope. Your Ship is not following the BSA National Council Program, as laid forth in a policy document.

 

When a qualifying male Venturer/Sea Scout continues to use the Boy Scout Division rank advancement system (Star, Life, Eagle, Palms), the Crew/Ship must follow the Boy Scout Division advancement policies as set forth in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA Stock 33088.

 

That said, when a Venturer/Sea Scout uses the Venturing award or Sea Scout award/rank advancement system, the Crew/Ship must follow the Venturing Division advancement policies as set forth in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA Stock 33088.

 

Both of these may be found on page 38.

 

A well trained Advisor/Skipper and Crew/Ship Committee, properly following the BSA Progam, knows when to apply which policies and procedures.

 

Or does that Crew/Ship "make stuff up" on the fly?

 

[ScoutNut]

BW - Are you saying that BSA National, which CLEARLY states in a number of BSA publications -

 

"As the Venturer meets requirements for the Star and Life ranks, a Board of Review will be conducted by the crew or SHIP COMMITTEE."

 

is WRONG?

 

 

[Gold Winger]

The global warming crisis has passed because Hell just froze over.

[kahits]

I hope the parents of my two scouts read every bit of this earnest research. Thanks for researching this for them, and their two scouts. I think they will be very happy doing Venturing.

[Bob White]

I never said that people never make mistakes. In fact in a recent post I pointed out that the BSA like any large corporation has some communications problems. The National office is made of separate divisions that they do not always talk to each other.

 

If you read the Boy Scout materials on Den Chief, they all tell you that the Senior Patrol Leader selects the Den Chief. But the Cub Scout resources say that the Scoutmaster selects the Den Chief.

 

Why the difference. Because Den Chief is a Boy Scout position not a Cub Scout. So when the Cub Scout DIVISION wrote that in the handbook they didn't double check with the Boy Scout division to see if that was correct.

 

Well Venturing and Sea Scouting are separate and when the Boy Scout DIVISION wrote about rank advancement, they didn't check with the Sea Scout folks on what the Sea Scout Manual and Sea Scout training says on the subject.

 

We have a communication error. Which is right, as a Sea Scout Leader we follow the Sea Scout Program. Just as which is right on den chiefs, Since Den Chief is a troop position you follow the Boy Scout Program.

 

Niether situation is a "flaw" in the programs, or the BSA, it is simply a conflict in the communications, so reasoning says that you follow the directions for the program you are in. As it happens, Sea Scouting has the most unique program elements in comparison to the other traditional programs for instance only Sea Scouts can offer any Sea Scout advancement in the Sea Scout ranks, but also all of the Venturing recognitions, AND (if they earned First Class at some time in a troop) the balance of all the Boy Scout Ranks and recognitions. So only as a Sea Scout is there the possibility or earning any and every recognition available in the BSA for a Boy Scout aged youth

 

But it only affects Sea Scouts, which only accounts for about 2% of all scouting membership. A boy in Sea Scouting or Venturing that earns the Eagle rank in those programs is not earning it as a Boy Scout, they earn it as Sea Scouts or as Crew members so the fact that those programs have uniques elements has no effect on troop scouting or the rank.

 

To answer CNY

Yes the Committee must approve Eagle and Quartermaster, and yes committee members can sit in on the Bridge of Review, nothing I have posted contradicts those statements.

 

All I said was that Sea Scouting is different.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

Bob, you still haven't provided us with a quote, including page and paragraph, which supports your claims. Remember Sea Scout advancement is not the same thing as Boy Scout advancement in a Sea Scout Ship.

[Gold Winger]

Hmmmmm . . . wait a second. Star, Life and Eagle are Boy Scout ranks, not Venturing. So doesn't it follow that the Boy Scouts would set the policies and procedures?

 

In any case, Bob, we're still waiting for you to quote, chapter and verse to support your argument and you can't argue that the procedures for Sea Scout rank are followed for Boy Scout rank unless it explicitly states that in the book.

[Bob White]

oh ye of little faith

Sea Scout Manual Page 83 paragraphs 3-5

[Gold Winger]

Strange, CNYScouter already quoted that part of the manual and he seems to disagree with you.

 

Unfortunately, I can't get to the Scout shop this weekend and my library's version of the "Sea Explorer Manual" is from 1961.

 

I'll have to wait until next week to look it up.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Bob White]

CNY quoted one sentence out of three paragraphs, and nothing he quoted contradicts anything I wrote.

 

I said that Sea Scouts was different than Boy Scouts or Venturing in its review of ranks.

 

Take a momemnt GW and actually READ what the handbook portion that CNY quoted says.

 

Nowhere does it say that the scout appears before a board of review of committee members. It says that the scout appears before the Skipper, and the Skipper sends the "application", NOT the scout, to a Bridge of Review that is made of members of the quarterdeck and committee. It does not say all the members of the committee, or JUST the members of the committee. A Group made of some youth officers and some committee members reviews the APPLICATION, not the scout, and instructs the Skipper and the Advancement Chair of their decision.

 

Now, does that sound DIFFERENT than what happens in a Scout Troop or a Venturing Crew or does it not?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

I'll reserve further comment until I have an opportunity to read the manual and evaluate what is written in its proper context.