Venturers Coed Rank Earning

[skeptic]

Venturing in our area tends to be heavily coed, as they usually focus on things the GS seldom attempt. I see the fact that a male venturer can earn merit badges, and Eagle (as long as earning first class in a troop)as another legal challenge waiting to happen.

 

Scenario: A set of male female twins join a crew at 14, drawn by friends and the challenges offered. The boy discovers that he can still co-register in a local troop and become a first class scout, then work on Eagle, as well as the regular venture awards. His sister cannot. Now we have an unhappy sibling and probably unhappy parents.

 

Solutions? One would be to let girls join BSA at 11, just like boys; but there really are good reasons why that does not work well, mostly related to the early differences in adolescent development. A better solution would be to simply allow the scout rank advancement program to be part of the crew options if chosen, retaining the age requirement to join at 14, but still finish by 18. Seems simple to me.

 

Just my thoughts; what are some of yours?

[LongHaul]

Female Eagle Scouts? IMO you'll see gay, atheist, sex offender SMs first. LH

[scoutldr]

Some of the Venturing scouters here may correct me, but I think the intent is that a scout be First Class before he joins the crew, and then he can continue the path to Eagle. If he maintains his troop membership, then rank advancement BORs should be under the troop...something his sister can't do. If she maintains membership in a GS troop, she can continue working on her Gold Award under the GS troop. So, under your example, I think the program is fair as designed.

[LongHaul]

Actually there is no requirement that I can find that says a Venturer must remain dual registered to attain Eagle. Page 5 of the 2006 requirements book (2007 being in the truck of my car right now) says that the SM conference will be conducted by the Advisor or Skipper which also leads me to believe that dual registration is not required. LH

[skeptic]

The dual registration, as I understand it, would only be needed if a scout had not yet achieved first class when he went into the crew. Thus the example of a "new" scout. Nothing at all says a boy cannot join a troop at any age, prior to 18. Good to hear GS would allow continued work. Should I presume that she would have to stay registered in a troop?

[scoutldr]

I didn't mean to imply that he MUST remain dual registration...just my opinion that if he does remain dual registered, the BS advancement should continue under the auspices of the troop, and he would work on Venturing awards under the crew. That's probably not written anywhere...JMHO.

[Gold Winger]

Yes, she would have to remain in GS to earn GS stuff since Venturing has no formal relationship with GSUSA.

 

If a boy is dual registered, he can get Star through the troop, Life through the Crew and then Eagle wherever he wants. It makes no never mind to BSA.

 

Girls can earn the Gold award through GSUSA, which carries many of the same perqs as Eagle such as early advancement in the armed forces.

[Beavah]

Yah, skeptic, you've identified one of da oddities in da program.

 

My answer is that there's SO much fun, excitement and personal growth that's possible in a well-run Venturing program that there should be no time nor interest in Boy Scout Advancement. Usually when I see "Advancement" happenin' in a crew, it's because some Boy Scouting volunteers transferred over to the crew and can't let Boy Scouting go. Just da way when Cub Scouters transfer over to a troop they tend to create Webelos III because they can't let Cub Scouting go.

 

So my preference would be that Venturing units just do Venturing. Get away from da middle school Boy Scouting program and be a high school group for real. Don't accept Boy Scouting volunteers until they've had time to be "deprogrammed." They need to learn and buy into da fact that Advancement is not a method in Venturing.

 

So IMO a crew should not be spendin' any time on Boy Scout Advancement, particularly when half its members can't participate. Allowin' a lad to finish Eagle in a crew is just that... an allowance, and a fairly rare occurrence. It should be somethin' tolerated "on the side." He should be doin' MB's on his own, not on crew time. And if a crew awards Eagle it should not be a big fuss. Kinda like if a troop awarded a Boy Scout his Arrow of Light because he didn't finish in the pack.

 

Save da Big Fuss for Ranger or Silver, or just da post-high-adventure-trip party with no awards at all other than what da youth want to give each other!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gold Winger]

" Usually when I see "Advancement" happenin' in a crew, it's because some Boy Scouting volunteers . . ."

 

Of course it could be that the boys want to work on advancement but I've sure that Beaver would never believe that could be possible.

[scoutldr]

I was one who left a troop and went to an Explorer Post as a 14 year old. This was c1969. The Post was sponsored by a Vol Fire Dept and Rescue Squad, and I was "recruited" by high school friends who were members. Since I was already Life, my Post advisor encouraged me to complete my Eagle, and I am grateful that he did. It was not part of the Post program, however. I did it on my own, without it being "programmed" for me, (which is not unlike how Boy Scouts should be doing it). I did a novel thing...I read the requirements and then proceeded to complete them. There was a small COH, with a cake, I think...certainly not on the scale that I see today. THe guest speaker was the Chief of the VFD and the Ladies Auxiliary of the VFD provided the cake and punch.

 

This has got me to thinking...I think I'll sew on my original Eagle square knot...the one with the dark green background.

[emb021]

"Of course it could be that the boys want to work on advancement but I've sure that Beaver would never believe that could be possible."

 

Actually, it is possible.

 

I know of a crew that was formed because Venturers (both boys and girls) wanted to work on Venturing advancement, and the advisor of their current crew refused to let them.

 

 

The thing to keep in mind is that 'advancement' is not a method of Venturing. Unlike in a Pack or Troop, you don't really build your Crew program around earning advancement.

 

As adults we should make sure the Venturers are aware of the awards (and what they can do to earn them), encourage the Venturers to earn them, and use 'stealth advancement' (show them what they had already completed thru crew activities, such that they know what extra work they need to do to earn the award). But we should not be harrasing the Venturers to earn them, or building the crew program around earning them (unless its the youth who want this).

 

 

[John-in-KC]

As emb021 notes, the BSA Buzzword is "Recognition."

 

Recognition of a Venturer can come in many forms, not just the rank advancement system BSA designed:

- HS Letters.

- Acceptance into National Honor Society or Tri-M.

- Scholarship offers.

- Appointments to the Service Academies.

- Offers of admission to colleges and universities.

- All-District/All-State competitions in everything from athletics to forensics.

 

Our job? Help these young people celebrate the good things happening to them! They get enough garbage in life from their peers and from their own expectations.

 

We can leverage any legitimate win for the young people in our Crews.

[ScoutNut]

"PER SKEPTIC - Scenario: A set of male female twins join a crew at 14, drawn by friends and the challenges offered. The boy discovers that he can still co-register in a local troop and become a first class scout, then work on Eagle, as well as the regular venture awards. His sister cannot. Now we have an unhappy sibling and probably unhappy parents."

 

No reason for unhappy anyone if both the youth and their parents understand the various programs involved.

 

If for whatever reason, these 2 brand new to Scouting youths, decide that the challenges of the Venturing program are not enough for them, they are free to join whatever other program they wish. Scouting or anything else.

 

If the boy decides he wishes to also join a BSA Boy Scout Troop and work toward Eagle, that is his choice. You are correct that his sister can not join a Boy Scout Troop and earn Eagle.

 

Likewise, if his sister decides she wishes to join a GSUSA Girl Scout Troop and work toward her Girl Scout Gold Award, that is her choice. And no, her brother would not be able to join the Girl Scout Troop and earn his Gold.

 

However, in by opinion, for two brand new to Scouting kids, to each join 2 different Scouting programs, and strive to earn any and all awards available to them in each program, it is a bit of a stretch. That calls for a LOT of work. Add all of that Scouting work on top of all of their high school schoolwork and HS extra curricular stuff, and you have the makings for 2 burned out kids, doesn't matter how happy the parents are.

 

In your scenario, those brand new to Scouting twins would be better served by sticking with Venturing and forgoing the Boy and Girl Scout Troops. There is plenty to learn and do in Venturing.

 

If however, what you/they are mainly interested in is earning Eagle and the GS Gold Award, then skip Venturing altogether. Instead join a Venture Patrol in a Boy Scout Troop and an outdoor oriented Girl Scout Troop.

 

[RangerT]

Gold Winger

I think some of your sarcastic replies to Beavah are both untrue and unfounded. IMHO you come across as some sort of prima donna scouter, however your comments seem to portray an almost rude, un scoutlike attitude and a poor or simplistic understanding of scouting. So lighten up please.

 

Beavah and emb21's scenarios about how a proper crew should run are right on target. I like Beavah's comment about ex boy scout leaders needing to be reprogrammed before doing a Venturing program is so true. In my area almost every crew failure in their first year or two was due to the crew being run by an ex scoutmaster like a boy scout troop, or more like a boot camp in some instances. These guys then actually wondered why girls were not interested in joining their crews,and I had to hold back my laughter. Thank God all of those crews here are now gone. As a former ASM and SM for 10 years and for the past five years as a Crew Advisor I know what makes for a successful troop and crew and they are two very different programs which require very different leadership styles.

[Gold Winger]

Let's see . . . Beaver says that a crew in which Boy Scout advancement is occurring is a poorly run crew. I point out that is could be that the boys want to do it and I'm in the wrong. Interesting.

 

Yes, I have a simplistic view of Scouting. I believe in the patrol concept and don't care for the Webelos III version of Boy Scouts.

 

I also belive in making boys work for what they earn, by that I want to see that they've actually learned what the book says that they are supposed to have learned. I'd like to see semaphore reintroduced but since it's not in the book, I won't do it.

 

I also believe that most parents should be kept in the background and that if older boys step up to be Patrol Leader we wouldn't need those silly Patrol Advisors (Web III Den Leaders)

 

Yep, that's me.

 

TTFN