Saluting the flag

[mdutch]

My Venture Crew's uniform consists of a polo shirt and jeans. During flag ceremonies, would it be appropriate for Venturers in uniform to salute the flag (as opposed to hand over the heart). Also, what is the difference between the Venture Scout Salute and the U.S. Military salute?

Thanks!

[emb021]

First off (I wasn't going to do this), please get the terms correct. It's Venturing Crew, not Venture Crew. There is no such thing as a 'Venture Scout' in the BSA. They are Venturers.

 

Please look in the Venturer Handbook. It shows the Venturer hand salute. I believe (check the book, am doing this off the top of my head), that as the Venturer Handside has the thumb extended away from the rest of the hand, the salute should be the same way. Frankly, it would be hard to tell.

 

As Venturing Crews define their own uniform, if YOUR Crew's uniform is polo shirts and jeans, then using the Venturing Hand Salure rather then over the heart would be ok. HOWEVER, be advised that some in and out of scouting may not understand this, so be prepared for some to make an issue of it.

 

[John-in-KC]

I'd probably encourage this Crew to do hand over heart. Even Major League Baseball teams in full uniform do hand over heart (with ballcap). Cub and Boy Scouts have distinctive salute forms: Two and three fingers, not whole hand. If you look at the tradition of a salute, it is, in part, to show the rendering of honors, and that the parties did not have arms in hand. In fact, there are definite and prescribed salutes for being under arms with a host of different weapons.

 

There is nothing wrong with most civilians doing hand over heart ... including Venturers.

[epalmer84]

Our troop and crew performs a salute when wearing the official uniform or the activity uniform. The troop activity uniform is a t-shirt with our troop logo on the back.

 

I think the salute is more about respect and not attire.

 

Ed

[Gunny2862]

I don't know the Venturing rules and quite frankly I am just happy that you are concerned enough to want to do the right thing.

 

As far as I know the right hand, finger and thumb are in-line, straight and held with the index finger of the hand at the upper right corner of the eyebrow - hand slightly tilted, hand and forearm in-line, arm at right angles to the body - parallel to the ground. And all of this from the position of attention in the military salute. For the Venturing salute you will have to go to your version of a handbook.

 

Now, in order to avoid unpleasant discussions with cranky veterans you may wish to use the hand over the heart at public forums, ballgames,flag ceremonies, etc., unless these situations are covered in your handbook. Especially if your uniform doesn't look so much like a uniform which indicates that you are in Scouting.

Also, if they (cranky veterans) do approach you and you are directed to salute as Venturers simply tell them that you are in Scouting - that this is a Venturing uniform, and that you performed the prescribed Venturing salute. And then walk away quickly. They will have to admit that at least in the ballparks now most adults don't know or won't do the right thing.

[Stosh]

And when all else fails, one can give the appropriate salute according to the Flag Code of June 14, 1923.

 

When a male is to salute a flag wearing civilian clothing he is to stand at attention.

 

When a male is to salute a flag wearing civilian clothing and a hat, he is to stand at attention, remove the hat with the right hand and place the hat over their heart.

 

When a male is to salute a flag wearing civilian clothing and a hat during incliment weather he is to stand at attention, lift his hat with his right hand and hold it over his head.

 

When a female is to salute a flag wearing civilian clothing she is to stand at attention and place her right hand over her heart.

 

When either male or female is to salute a flag wearing a military uniform they are to stand at attention and render a proper military salute.

 

A scout uniform is no longer considered a military style uniform since the 1970's and therefore scouts should render the appropriate salute as if they are wearing civilian clothing.

 

Any variations from the Flag Code of June 14, 1923 is purely the invention of personal imaginations and/or commonly held traditions that have nothing to do with the recognized protocol of the Flag Code of June 14, 1923.

 

While it has become popular to "make up rules as you go along", it is rather fruitless to question their validity when they are not adherent to the Flag Code of June 14, 1923.

 

My crew (male) uses military uniforms and render appropriate military salutes in spite of BSA policy/protocol against it. The females of the crew, depending on their particular dress at the moment will normally not render any recognition of the flag at all.

 

When only a partial uniform is worn at any particular time, using a valid US flag, a civilian salute (at attention or hat over the heart) is rendered.

 

Stosh

[FScouter]

"A scout uniform is no longer considered a military style uniform since the 1970's and therefore scouts should render the appropriate salute as if they are wearing civilian clothing."

 

That sounds like you're saying Boy Scouts in uniform should NOT salute the flag, but place hand over heart instead? Where can one read more about that idea?

[epalmer84]

> jblake47

"While it has become popular to "make up rules as you go along", it is rather fruitless to question their validity when they are not adherent to the Flag Code of June 14, 1923.

 

My crew (male) uses military uniforms and render appropriate military salutes in spite of BSA policy/protocol against it."

 

The second statement rather destroys the validity of the first. That is all I have on that subject, and I am not pursuing it any further.

 

 

 

Flag Code of June 14, 1923 is rather a misnomer. While true that the United States Flag Code was adopted by the National Flag Conference in 1923, it was not adopted into the US Code until 1942 and has been revised several times, most recently in 1999. It is currently Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1. Notable changes include dropping the Bellamy salute in 1942 and changes to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

 

There is no provision to enforce the Flag Code, nor is there any penalty for any violation, thus the Flag Code is an advisory code.

 

The Flag Code does not address patriotic organizations (the BSA is chartered under the US Code as such), firefighters, law enforcement or any other uniformed organizations. The BSA custom of the Scout salute predates the formal adoption of the Flag Code by three decades and police use is probably much older than that.

 

The BSA usage states "when in uniform". There are two levels of uniform the official uniform for the program division and the activity uniform.

 

Ed

[Gunny2862]

jblake and epalmer84, excellent answers - imagine going and looking up sources.

 

Well, we still haven't come up with a definitive answer..., does anyone have a Venturing handbook?

[Trevorum]

Ed, do you know whether the Bellamy salute was prohibited or was merely discontinued? (That is to ask, could one be arrested these days for giving the Bellamy salute at a Veteran's day parade?)

[mdutch]

Stosh,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. However, I am not sure where you got your information from. According to current US Code (title 4 Section 4):

"The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag...should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."

 

But that still leaves open the question of what constitutes a uniform and what constitutes a "military salute"

[RangerT]

Gentlemen

 

Refer to the Venturing handbook pgs 7-8 "If a Venturer finds themselves in uniform at an occasion where a salute is required they should use the full hand salute."

 

Definition of a uniform, "the spruce green shirt and grey pants is the recommended uniform, however, the uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew."

 

My reading is that any crew uniform identifying the wearer as a member of a Venturing crew makes them eligible to use the Venturing salute, and my friend at the Venturing division in Irving concurs. I hope that settles things. YIS.