OA flap on venturing uniform

[kahits]

Yes or no, and does it matter and why? I saw one Venturing uniform at Conclave this past weekend, and that is what made me wonder. Thanks,

[OldGreyEagle]

If the scout or scouter is a member of the OA, of course they can wear it on their Venturing Uniform, as the OA is part of the BSA (ok, technically maybe it is, maybe it isn't, not important here)

 

It's no different than a scout wearing his Arrow of Light, earned as a Cub on his Boy Scout uniform, or wearing a religious knot on his Boy Scout uniform for a recognition earned as a Cub. Or a Scoutmaster wearing his Cubmaster knot on his Scoutmaster uniform, or a Venture Crew Advisor wearing his Scoutmaster Key on his Venturing Uniform.

 

Whether or not a Coed Program should allow the wearing of recognitions that only some of the members are allowed to earn, is another thread all together.

[kahits]

Thank you, OGE... that last line is the part that is the reason I asked. My daughter, the current Crew president, will probably never be eligible for membership into OA, and it's for that reason I asked the question. She has been a loyal supporter of scouting, having worked day camp for her brother for 3 of the 5 years he was in CS, and even though she is now in a BSA program, she still finds things she can't be a part of, even though her female advisor took a brief district committee position long enough (less then a year) so she could be nominated for OA, and now is no longer active, but she has her flap and sash.

[SR540Beaver]

I don't own an insignia guide. I come here and get other people's opinions. I would say that logic dictates no. The OA is part of Boy Scouts. Venturing is a different program and the OA flap does not belong on the Venturing uniform. Just my two cents and I'm perfectly willing to let a book thumping uniform policeman prove me right or wrong.

[SR540Beaver]

Geez, why didn't I just go look before I popped off?

 

http://usscouts.org/venturing/UniformingFAQ.html

 

Q. Can I wear my OA flap on my Venturing uniform (i.e. green shirt)? My crew wants to say I cant, since our female Venturers cant join the OA.

 

A. Regardless of the fact that Venturers cannot be elected into the OA as Venturers (they can be elected in as Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts, or as adult leaders of Boy Scout Troops or Varsity Scout Teams if they meet the requirements for YOUTH membership), the OA flap may be worn on the green Venturing shirt. This is stated in the FAQ list at the National OA website. Personally, I feel that it is inappropriate for a crew to decide not to allow members to wear the flap. BSA Uniforming policies allow it, and thats that. Should a Venturer or Venturing adult choose not to wear the flap, that is their choice. But no one should be barred from wearing it.

[CNYScouter]

From the usscouts.org web site:

 

http://usscouts.org/venturing/UniformingFAQ.html

 

Venturing Uniforming Frequently Asked Questions(FAQ)

 

14. Can I wear my OA flap on my Venturing uniform (i.e. green shirt)? My crew wants to say I cant, since our female Venturers cant join the OA.

 

Regardless of the fact that Venturers cannot be elected into the OA as Venturers (they can be elected in as Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts, or as adult leaders of Boy Scout Troops or Varsity Scout Teams if they meet the requirements for YOUTH membership), the OA flap may be worn on the green Venturing shirt. This is stated in the FAQ list at the National OA website. Personally, I feel that it is inappropriate for a crew to decide not to allow members to wear the flap. BSA Uniforming policies allow it, and thats that. Should a Venturer or Venturing adult choose not to wear the flap, that is their choice. But no one should be barred from wearing it.

 

Also on the National Venturing Youth Cabinet website there are pictures of proper patch placement on the Green Venturing Shirt.

They have a picture showing the right pocket with an OA falp.

 

www.nationalventuringyouthcabinet.org/uniform.html

 

(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

[emb021]

FWIW, I wrote the FAQ that SR540Beaver cited.

 

Also, the OA has this on their FAQ list. Its ok to wear the OA flap on your Venturing uniform. I do.

 

http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-35.htm

 

Some choice not to wear it. That's their choice. As its ok to wear, do not hassle those that do.

 

Not everyone (in an out of the OA) is happy about the policy that prevents female Venturers from getting voting into the OA. Many would like to see this change. Sadly, I don't expect it to any time soon.

 

[kahits]

In the meantime, I will encourage them to adopt the COD program, in lieu of no means to recognize and challenge the youth and adults for future commitment and service to the crew and scouting. The only members of the crew who had a problem with it when I originally mentioned it were male members who were OA members. They have long become inactive in the crew, and it is primarily my daughter and quite a few girls who continue to drive this crew. The prediction of it becoming an all girl crew may come to pass, but for now I think they deserve something of their own and none of the other crews camp as much as these 9th graders do. They went to Spring camporee and got third in the knot tying relay, which really got the attention of all those troops who came in behind them. Not bad for only learning their knots the first night of Camporee, thanks to the only male, Eagle scout member of the crew to attend with them. He loved being the injured victim in the First aid challenge, until they dropped him that is. My comment to them will be if they adopt the COD program, and they induct me, I will take off the OA flap and wear theirs.

[SR540Beaver]

Just out of curiousity, why is a Venturing crew at a camporee competing against Boy Scout patrols?

 

The district I used to be in used to use camporees like a second Webelos Woods to recruit Webelos and allowed them to compete in the events. It was not age appropriate for the Webelos and messed up any actual competition for the patrols. Fortunately they have discontinued the practice.

[OldGreyEagle]

Thanks Beaver, I was thinking the same thing. As Venturing ages go from 14-21, I would hope a Crew (even with girls (cooties and all) would be able to hold their own against boys mostly 11-14)

 

Then again, about the OA thing, seeing as OA is the Camping Honor Society and 4 of the 5 sections that consitute the Venturing Program (Sea Scouts, Arts and Hobbies, Sports, Youth Ministries) don't Camp, why pick on the OA?

 

Lets develop our own organization rather than glom onto somebody elses

[kahits]

Well, in our council, actually, there are no events made for the crews to come together for. Crews can volunteer, as individuals, to work at the council camp, but other then that, the crews are pretty much on their own. Since many in the crew were already going to be at camporee, due to their connection to a troop (myself included) or OA, I suggested they, all,consider going. There have been crews at Klondike in the past, although not very competitive ones. This was more a chance for them to get more camping in and spend some time together. What I found striking was hearing the shreeks of new scouts, in the troops up on the hill, sounding like banshees, apparently on their first, ever troop campout, and seeing the crew being a mature bunch having fun throwing an electric frisbee after sunset. I guess it was a, you had to have been there.....

[epalmer84]

A few ramblings...

 

According to my 1986 version of The Order of the Arrow Handbook, male Explorers could be elected to the OA. It appears this was dropped entirely for Venturing. I think female leaders could be selected to the OA in 1988 or so, just after females were allowed to be Scoutmasters.

 

The COD that kahits mentioned is the Corps of Discovery, a nascent Venturing honor/service society. It uses a pocket flap similar to the OA flap.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/corpsofdiscovery/?yguid=305994200

 

A few years ago, we started an event called the Iditarod. Run in conjunction with the Klondike Derby, the Iditarod is an advanced program for senior Scouts and Venturers. It involves survival and advanced Scoutcraft skills.

 

Ed

[OldGreyEagle]

In the Council I serve, there was much consternation that the Council didnt do anything for Venturing. The Crew I serve was so flumoxed they (the youth) put together an activity that invited all the Crews to attend. Sort of a "we are going to be on this week end and would love for you to come as well" We did well. Then another crew sponsored a "Cardboard Boat Regatta" and we were off. Crews sponsor the event and invite other crews, no Council involvement, which is often just as well

[SR540Beaver]

Recently, we were at our local council property to do a shakedown for a backpacking trip we are taking this summer. The place was crawling with Crews using the climbing tower and COPE course. I believe they had other activities going on as well. To my knowledge, this was not a council sponsered event, but something put together by the Crews like OGE mentioned. It appeared that they had a good turn out and were having a blast.

[Beavah]

Yah, emb021 illustrates how a lot of da BSA documents get generated, in a relatively haphazard fashion. So the OA website has the FAQ as described.

 

However, when you look it up in the Insignia Guide, OA pocket flaps are shown only for Boy Scout Program identification on the uniform, not for Venturing program. So that somewhat-more-primary source suggests it's not an OK thing.

 

In da end, though, we should consider principles. Order of the Arrow is a Boy Scout program, not a Venturing program. More than half of our Venturers wouldn't be eligible for it. A uniform is supposed to be uniform, it's supposed to reduce differences between members and make them part of the same team, which doesn't happen if people wear all kinds of non-program doodads that their peers can never earn.

 

I'm not fond of uniform policin', and I wouldn't raise a fuss over OA flaps on green. But if asked, I'd suggest it's a bit odd and a little disrespectful to one's crew-mates, and I'd have no problem with a crew that discounted such stuff in a uniform inspection. Certainly I think adults should leave 'em off as a good example to the crew members.

 

Beavah