Why are we in decline?

[trailfinder52@yahoo.com]

Why is BSA Traditional Programs in decline?It is all over the program and not just in Venturing. What can be done to remedy this problem. Our audience today youth from 6-20 years old is over taxed. Between school activities, other youth activities, teams, school band, jobs,cheerleading, Religious youth programs, and on top of all this, most of the youth that are interested in scouting are the over achievers. We have good programs in BSA generally and in Venturing specifically but are we relevant today? There is a stereotypical viewpoint that all Venturing crews are all Outdoor oriented and that is it. Venture Crews can do many things, there are specialty lists that list all the Venturing specialties.Now Before I am burned at the stake for what I say take this into account. The things that BSA stand for although very good and I believe in them. But they are not all that important as they once were. Many training programs in scouting for adults seem to be geared for the successful professional (nothing against professionals) but a person from a service job or even blue collar job does not understand much of it. So how can a 14 year old Patrol Leader understand it. We also live in an era full of electronic gadgets like video games, computer games, cell phones, blackberries, so tent camping in Grand Tetons just does not seem very much like fun, Many youth that we get are basically good kids and are somewhat like we are. But there are many more who are not really interested in scouting. As far as older youth programs like Venturing, Varsity, and Sea Scouting young adults (teenagers) seem to bore easy and if it is not full of action packed events all the time, they will leave, the business meeting is not going to keep them. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our programs, I have no answer. But what I suggest is to try to understand youth and then maybe we can reach them with our programs. Every kid is up for grabs it just depends who grabs them. Maybe mix tradition with today.

[Eamonn]

I can't help but think we have not had a handle on understanding youth dating back to Cain and Abel.

I sometimes think that maybe we are a victim of our own success!

While some will say that Baden Powell used ideas from other organizations that were around before Boy Scouts. The appeal of Boy Scouting and the "Outdoor Classroom" at the time it started was new and seemed to work well.

So well that many other organizations now use a lot of the basic ideas.

I don't claim to have any of the answers.

I do remember back when I was a Cub I couldn't wait to become a Scout, so that I could go camping. Back when I was a Scout I couldn't wait till I joined the Venture Scout Unit (this was in the UK.) to do the high adventure activities at age 16.

Now it seems there is no wait, Cub Scouts are camping from Tiger Cubs and High Adventure starts at 14.

I know what I'm about to say will not sit well with a lot of people but...

I do feel that we might be guilty of over rewarding our youth and not teaching them enough about life.

We hand out beads for every little accomplishment, we never want to see a kid lose! Pine Wood Derby's give every Lad that enters some sort of reward. Merit Badge Counselors cut the Lad a break or hand out badges for just sitting through the class.

We the adults seem afraid to say "I'm sorry you need to go back and get it right!"

We don't teach the basics and without these basics and these skills the youth can't take the next step.

They are not going to hike because they don't know how to use a map and a compass, they are not going sailing because they can tie the knots or they know deep down that the swimming merit badge was never really earned.

When we cheat the system, we cheat the youth we are supposed to be serving.

Venturing as it stands now is never going to work.

Just about every crew I know (And I'm sure there will be exceptions -but I don't know them!!) is connected to a CO that also charters other Scouting units or has adults that came from Scouting units.

The idea that we (the BSA) can offer something to non-scouting groups, just doesn't work.

The Venturing specialties is never going to work, mainly because youth get into new things all the time, so while First Aid might be something that holds the interest for a while, next month it could be flower arranging or scuba.

We need a program that brings youth members together regardless of specialty and allows each individual an opportunity to follow and pursue what his or her interest is at that time, while remaining a member of the group with their pals.

I really think that the time has come for us to take a long hard look at the age groups.

Is it realistic to have a program that runs from 10 years old till 18 years old?

Is it realistic to have a program that runs from 14 till 21?

We might also want to look at the size of our units can any unit with only five members on the charter effectively deliver a quality program?

When we know how busy parents are is having our first program be a Parent (Adult Partner) Son program such a good idea?

Any and all changes are going to be met will those who agree and those who will think that any sort of change stinks!!

I suppose the big fear is that if too many people think it stinks we will lose our volunteer base? Still if we are not meeting the needs of the youth we are supposed to be serving, will we need all the volunteers?

Many volunteers seem to have lost their faith in the BSA. They don't trust their local Councils and see the BSA as being more like the "BSA Inc."

Council Executive Boards are no longer full of well meaning people who put the youth first, these nice people have been replaced by business men who know how to read the bottom line, but have no idea what a kid is. Sure it makes sense that camps make money -But that isn't why we have them.

Many of us old geezers (I include myself) need to try and gain a better understanding of todays youth.

They are taught in a different way than we were.

They not only accept technology, they expect it!!

We need to look at who we are trying to sell our product too? Sure, all this talk about values and character is great for adults but youth don't join because of the values or because they need a character rebuild.

They join for fun, adventure and challenges and maybe because they have friends in the program.

It seems to me that we place way too much effort into talking to adults and not those who we want to join.

Ea.

 

[CNYScouter]

I think with the amount of other choices youth have today if Scouting promises fun, challenges and adventure and meeting are nothing more than MB sessions the decline will continue.

 

Even in this day of declining overall enrollment I see troops that are growing.

They arent the MB mills or the adult lead camping clubs but units that do a good job of presenting and using the Scouting program.

One thing I noticed that these units dont produce any less Eagles than the Eagle mills.

 

I seen it said here before if you are not going to be the best show in town Scouts will go elsewhere.

 

I also think that we live in the age of instant gratification.

Sports allows parents to see instant success in which Scouting often takes years to see its successes.

 

When my son was in Cubs one of the other leaders was a Law professor.

He said that he had students complain that they couldnt find research material after spending a whole 5 mins. searching the internet.

He would have to point them to the Law Library and tell then that they might actually have to look up a book and read it.

 

I am still not sure about the Venturing program. When I see Crews using the Venturing program, using advancement and teaching leadership and the youth selecting activities, it seems to work well.

I just dont see many Crews using the Venturing program.

 

I dont really like the idea of Crews be created just for insurance purposes.

Of the 12 other crews in our district none really use the Venturing program.

The 2 high adventure crews are offshoots of Troops and at this point only exist on paper as the members are all way at college.

The rest are really just clubs that get together a couple of times a month to do their specialty.

The problem I see with these specialty crews is exactly what Eamonn points out because youth get into new things all the time, so while First Aid might be something that holds the interest for a while, next month it could be flower arranging or scuba. .

A couple of the Sea Scouts have been going with a Shooting Crew.

Right know they seem interested but I dont see it lasting over the long term.

They had a large group join a year ago when they started but since then most have stopped coming and they are trying to recruit.

If it wasnt for the Ship members joining they would only have 3 or 4 out of the original 20 coming.

 

From the units I have met one of the biggest thing that is missing is Leadership.

Most have little or no organization to them, not only on the Scout side but with the adults.

I have been an ASM with 2 troops but havent really had any responsibilities in either.

From what I have seen most adult leaders have no idea what Leadership is much less on how to teach it.

Most adults find its just easier to do it themselves than to teach the scouts to do it.

Perhaps we need a training program that teaches these skills. 

 

To turn the Venturing program around I think I will need to start at the top.

Professionals have no idea on how to organize a Crew or run a Venturing program.

They see Crews as an easy way to boost membership in the short term but have no idea what it will take to sustain it in the long run and are supplying no support to do so.

 

Most of the other Crew Leaders I have met are doing double-duty as troop leaders.

It seems that because of this the crews are getting the short end of things.

They seem to think that the Crews can tag along with the troop for outings and thats OK.

 

At the Sea Scout Training weekend a coupe of things one of the instructors said some things made good deal of since when he was talking about getting kids at 13 years old.

He said that most scouts are leaving Scouting before they get to 14 (Venturing age) and it happens around the age of 13.

They are having success by getting them at 13 and keeping them interested in Scouting

He also said that he thought that most kids are not ready to become leaders at 13 or 14.

After a couple of years of learning the Sea Scout program and during this time they are learning to be good followers they are ready to be Ship Leaders at 15 or 16.

I also liked his attitude about having Kids form Troops joining the Ship.

He didnt allow Scouts to leave their unit to join the Ship.

He expected them to take the leadership skills learned with the Ship back to the Scout Troops.

But this will only work if crews are going to use the Venturing program and not just be another activity to join.

 

I dont have the answers either but I think something needs to be done if Scouting is going to last another 100 years.

 

 

 

 

[trailfinder52@yahoo.com]

Why not use a european approach after Boy Scouts wedge Varsity between the Troop and Crew Programs up Venturing's age to 17 or 18 and continue to age 21 and use the young adults in leadership or like a Rover Program. In Venturing continue the specialty interest idea but make it more like Scouting instead of Scouting Lite. Where this would be a continual line of scouting, but also young men and women could still join the Venturing program, and encourage Varsity to continue in making events open to young women, but not team membership. Or Option 2 a pre-Venturing Program that introduces youth to a club like organization. Continue in maintaining the scouting values and traditions.

[RangerT]

My dear friend Eamonn forever the fatalist. Even in the time of Baden Powell scouting did not attract most of the young boys, even if some scouters delude themselves into believing it did.

 

The reason our numbers are dropping is because of new interests and attractions that did not exsist twenty years. In modern times with fears of your kids being snatched or abused by perv's, parents keep their kids indoors or isolated much more. To prove this, when was the last time you saw all the kids in the neighborhood out playing together like we did as youth?? Another reason is the huge increase in home schooling has developed a generation of socially inept children, why, because parents are afraid to send them to public school where they feel the other kids run uncontroled and that the quality of teaching is inferior. We live in a society where we fear or don't trust each other anymore and that is plain sad. We fear the outside world and our very own neighbors. This has had a large impact on the drop in scouting numbers as well.

 

As far as Venturing I disagree with you again Eamonn, if the program is delivered properly it does succeed, as my own crew is testimony tripled in size since its formation. Like any program in scouting there is a right way and a wrong way. At the rate things are going in my council the number of Venturers will soon surpass the number of Boy Scouts, our crews are growing whereas the troops are folding, most with only 5-6 boys left. The average size crew in my area is 15 by comparison. So I think it depends on the area you are in and the way the programs are being delivered that determines your success or failure.

 

To paraphrase a famous quote "I think that the rumors of Venturings demise are greatly exaggerated."

Happy Scouting/Venturing to all of you.

[Eamonn]

To paraphrase a famous quote "I think that the rumors of Venturings demise are greatly exaggerated."

OK I wonder what the numbers say?

The last membership numbers I have are for November numbers - 217,343 - down 3.3% from November 2005. The 2005 numbers were down 10.9% on 2004.

Take a look at 2001 the Venturing numbers are listed as being 315,296

While not dead it would seem that from 2001 till last November almost 98,000 Venturers called it a day!!

I'm always happy to hear about any unit, District or Council doing well.

But it seems clear to me that when about a third of the membership just isn't there any more that we have a problem -A big problem

Ea.

[RangerT]

The numbers you show Eamonn I think only tell part of the story. Many crews, as someone said earlier, were created by the scouting "Pros" and were nothing more than ghost or paper units to boost numbers so of course they folded or ready to fold after a year, a practice I have heard that occurred nationwide. The stats you quote are reflecting the demise of those units which were never real units anyway. The other problem is that there are very few scouting professionals and few scouters who really understand the purpose and program of Venturing or even Sea Scouts for that matter.

 

We are also losing Boy Scout troops at an alarming rate as well disguised by National by creating inner city and LFL paper units that are not really boy scouts at all but an inner city gym where kids can play basketball after school. The bottom line is that all figures from National are suspect at best and that we scout leaders owe these teens the best program we can. My crew started with 10-12 youth four years ago and is now at 60. I have been asked in my council to consider becoming the Venturing Leader Training Chair, and have been invited to Philmont to participate in Venturing Leaders Conference, but like yourself Eamonn I don't want to take on more duties that will pull me away from my crew.

 

I think it is time for National to take a long hard look at all their programs and make some very necessary revisions to them. In addition National needs to do some in house cleaning of their own and the unscrupulous practices of many of the professional scouters and councils. Purging is good for the soul they say and it is long overdue at the professional and volunteer level in order to create a better quality standard of program that can equally compete with all the other activities open to youth these days. If we don't level the playing field and soon then this debate will be a moot one.

 

YIS

[emb021]

"Why not use a european approach after Boy Scouts wedge Varsity between the Troop and Crew Programs up Venturing's age to 17 or 18 and continue to age 21 and use the young adults in leadership or like a Rover Program. In Venturing continue the specialty interest idea but make it more like Scouting instead of Scouting Lite. Where this would be a continual line of scouting, but also young men and women could still join the Venturing program, and encourage Varsity to continue in making events open to young women, but not team membership."

 

This is not just a 'european thing', but something that most scouting association do, but which the BSA does not. In most associations, the scouting sections are:

 

Cub Scouts 7-10

Boy Scouts 11-14

Venturing 15-18

Rovers 19-26

 

(please note, the actual names used many be a little different)

 

The BSA has a problem with 3 programs 'competing' for the same age group of 14-17 (Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturing). You may not be aware, but the ORIGINAL Varsity Scout program was limited to 14-15 year old boys, with the idea that boys would then move into Exploring (this was back in the 70s).

 

My idea for the BSA is that they should have these sections:

 

Cub Scouts 7/8-10

Boy Scouts 11-14

Varsity Scouts 14-18

Venturing 14-18 [including Sea Scouts]

Rovers 19-26

 

So end Boy Scouts with 14. Leave Varsity Scouting as is, to allow those boy who want to continue to be 'boy scouts' to do so, but in Varsity Scouting. This will also end the nonsense of 'Venturing is stealing my older boys' .

 

Leave Venturing essentially along, but bring down the age limit to 18, as it used to be with Explorers. And then bring back Rovers, which is 'young adult scouting'.

 

"Or Option 2 a pre-Venturing Program that introduces youth to a club like organization. Continue in maintaining the scouting values and traditions. "

 

Some have discussed something along these lines, but mainly for the girls who are put off by the 'susie homemaker' program in Girl Scouts.

 

 

[Eamonn]

I like to think that all of us want to do our best to serve all the youth.

Talking for myself -I really want to see us adults help the Vision and Mission statements of the BSA have real meaning and succeed.

I'm willing to accept the responsibility for the quality of the program that the Ship offers the youth members.

While the Ship is youth led, much of what they want to do is dependent on little old me.

For example there is a Ski day coming up. I don't ski and hate being out in the cold. I'm happy that some of them want to go, but I let it be known from the get go that it just isn't my cup of tea and they need to find someone else to drive them.

Much of the training I have taken is about things that I find interesting.

In October I took the LNT Instructor Course. In part because I thought it might in some way at some time help the ship, but mostly because it was something that I wanted to do.

I happen to like and can understand the Sea Scout program. There are parts of it that I'm not very good at. But I'm willing to work on getting better at them.

At this time we seem to be in a slump. I'm willing to work with the Scouts about fixing that. I believe it can be fixed and we can overcome the obstacles and fix it.

I don't know if some of the obstacles in other programs can be fixed.

I don't know what is happening elsewhere? But it seems in our District we do a good job of recruiting Cub Scouts.

Starting in May the little Lads who are about to graduate from kindergarten are signed up, then again at School Night in September more are signed up. Sadly it seems by Christmas many have decided that Tiger Cubs isn't for them.

Dens with only two or three are the norm or in the bigger packs it seems that they go the other way with Dens of twelve or fifteen.

I hate to sound like Goldilocks and the three Bears, but one is too small to be workable and the other is just too big.

I know nothing about the new Lion program that is being tested. But I can't help feeling it is a way to boost the membership numbers.

I'm informed that we lose most of the Cub Scouts we do lose when they get to Bear.

I have no idea why.

Back when I was a Cubmaster, soccer was very big in our area. In fact I was a soccer coach. It was at about this age some Lads seemed to show promise, while others seemed to be not that great. Very often the Lads who were good were invited to join traveling teams, which really took up a lot of time. Maybe? At this age the Lad starts to have a voice and is able to inform his parents what he wants to do and not do. I know we had Cub Scouts leave the pack because parents said that their son was given the choice of three activities and when the Lad made a choice Cub Scouting didn't make the list.

Nearly all the Cub Scouts who cross over seem to be excited to be joining the Troop.

They grab hold of the Boy Scout Handbook and can't wait to get started.

It seems that after three years this enthusiasm has gone. Things like learning to cook, erect a tent, first aid which were once a joy are now seen as work. The Summer camp which was seen as a great adventure is now seen as "Oh no!! Not there again!"

The Scouts who remain do well until they move from the junior high to the high school.

Once they make that move they become Troop Visitors. They look in as and when they feel they have the time and work on completing their Eagle Scout rank.

It's not unusual to see a Troop in our District double in size after B&G Season.

Twelve or fifteen new Lads all join up at the same time. So we have a dozen or more 10 & 11 year olds, but we only have about a dozen Boy Scouts from age 12 -18.

Meeting the needs of the new Scouts seems to become the main focus of the Troop.

The older (15-18 year old) Scouts aren't around. The 13 and 14 year old Scouts are expected to look after this little Lads.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard "I don't like working with the little kids!"

I know this is not the way things are supposed to work but it is what is happening in our area.

Soon the 14 year olds get fed up and either quit or join the other older Scouts as Troop Visitors.

Many remain active because they enjoy parts of the program. With my son it was the OA.

Then along comes the idea of a Ship or a Crew.

The promise of new things to do, new challenges and new adventures is wonderful.

But many Ships and Crews fail to meet or live up to the expectations of the youth.

Without wishing to come off sounding sexist, it seems that the girls do better than the boys.

The boys have got used to the idea that they really don't need to be an active participant. That it's OK to just Visit as and when they have the time or feel like it. Why shouldn't they feel this way? After all it's what they are used to doing.

In the Ship it seems the age when Boy Scouts want to join is about 16. This means we only have about two years till they go off to college. Of course we get the youth who are deep into the program, but we also get the youth who are busy and do try to attend when they can.

This might be OK if we had large units, but with the average size of a Crew or Ship being under twelve, it makes trying to deliver a quality program really hard.

Ea.

[emb021]

"There is a stereotypical viewpoint that all Venturing crews are all Outdoor oriented and that is it."

 

The thing is, is this is largely true. Outdoor crews make up the vast bulk of Venturing crews. Something like 90%. Hence the domanance. The Outdoor Committee of the National Venturing Committee is the tail that wags the dog. This is why the Ranger Award came out first of the Expert Awards (Trust and Quest being the others). This is why the Venturing Leader Manual has all that outdoor stuff in it, etc.

 

Not saying its right or wrong, just how it is.

 

"VenturING Crews can do many things, there are specialty lists that list all the Venturing specialties."

 

True. And I've pointed this out from day one, but many don't get it. The flexibility of the Venturing program is our greatest strengh and our greatest weakness. Too many scouters from the 'traditional' programs don't get this. And its said, because its one of our legacy from the Exploring program, and has been around since the late 1940s! and became a formal part in the 1970s!

 

"Many training programs in scouting for adults seem to be geared for the successful professional (nothing against professionals) but a person from a service job or even blue collar job does not understand much of it. So how can a 14 year old Patrol Leader understand it."

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are speaking of. As someone who has gone thru most of the current (and a few of the recent former) BSA training courses in the Boy Scout and Venturing realm, I don't understand what you mean. All the courses are gear to the particular participant, whether its age or program or both. While there are similiarities in some content, they still development the content to be relavent to the particular age/program.

 

[Stosh]

We have found the following to be factors in our numbers:

 

1) Don't try and compete with other activities, you'll lose.

 

2) Don't try to accumulate numbers for the sake of numbers.

 

3) Focus on what you do best and forget the rest.

 

4) If you build a better mousetrap, they'll flock to your doors.

 

5) Keep expectations high, both for you and your scouts.

 

6) Recruiting should not be the main goal of your organization.

 

7) If the scouts are not having fun/learning/being challenged, talk with them, don't pull ideas out of the air.

[scoutldr]

What happened to the initiative to register youth soccer teams as Cub Packs? Another failed attempt to inflate the numbers?