New crew and a Small problem

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't know about scaring Miss Jenn away, but she did ask what the rules are. Lets go with what we know. She said she thinks the idea of a Venturing Crew is cool, so we know she is a decent right thinking individual. We know one of the leaders is her fiancee, as in not married yet but he promises to do so, so talk about what a husband and wife can do while in a Venture Crew is wildly out of place.

 

To be an adult leader in a Venture Crew, the lucky young man has to be 21 or older, for Jenn to be contemplating joining, then she must be under 21. I know its conjecture, but I think my logic is sound. So taking the above to be true, The soon to be Mr Dragonn is over 21 and she is under 21 then the rules are clear, only one can be in the Crew because of the Youth Protection rules found in the Boy Scouts of America

Youth Protection Guidelines for Adult Venturing Leaders

Training Guide found here:

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/ypt/pdf/25-026.pdf

 

 

Check out item 10 on page 2 where it states:

 

The roles of volunteer adult leaders in the Venturing program require that clear boundaries be established between adult leaders and youth members. For this reason, fraternization the formation of peer-based, social relationships between adult and youth members is not permitted. This prohibition extends to Venturing crewmembers who register as adults after their twenty-first birthday.

 

This is also covered in the videotape on Youth Protection for Venturing Leaders, simply put you can't have an adult leader and a youth member dating. Whether or not we may think it makes sense, is right or enforceable, the question originally posed was regarding the rules "to this one".

 

What happens next is up to Jenn, and the soon to be Mr Jenn.

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

You keep referring to a "married couple" Jenn isn't married and that is the whole issue. If she wants to be able to participate in the program when she is married and has children she best consider the risk now. You say the risk of not being able to join outweighs the risk of not being able to participate when their child joins. I dont see it that way. They cant be brought up on criminal charges but if not being able to join is worth the risk now why isnt not being able to join with you child later on equal footing? Do you know anyone who has had their membership revoked for YP issues? Unfortunately I do, and the avenues to reinstate are very rough because of general views on YP. This has NOTHING to do with the precious and revered CO. If you live in Grand Teton Council maybe you can laugh at the YP regulations but not so much elsewhere. It makes no difference who voices the concern it could be someone with a personal axe to grind as was the case with one of the couples here in CAC. The result will be the same unless the SE wants to take a stand in opposition to the YP regs. As John-in-KC says talk with the SE. Blowing the regs off on principle could be very costly if this couple wants to remain in Scouting and participate with their children. You seem to be a person who looks at things from the stand point of what is in the best interest of the Scout. How is telling Jenn to take the chance in her best interest? How is it in the best interest of her fianc? Would you tell someone to ignore YP rules and drive to and from a meeting with an unaccompanied youth in the car because its the only way this youth could attend meetings? Would it be OK for an adult to have a secluded one on one discussion with a youth as long as the youths parents didnt object? I feel your pain in that sometimes we cant do the sensible thing because the rules say no and the Risk involved with breaking the rules is great.

LongHaul

 

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah,

 

In the past, you've accused a number of us of creating strawman arguments when discussing your advocating tweaks and adaptations to the program. This situation falls right in line with our use of "strawman" arguments. Had one of us brought this real life issue up you would have shrugged it off as an out of left field exception. You are right, BSA doesn't get to decide age law. They do however ge to set policy for their registered leaders and the interaction they have with youth members. Thems the breaks. Many companies don't allow married couples to work for them and/or have rules concerning management dating subordinates.....and they are grown adults.

 

No one is trying to scare Jenn away. Heck, we all want to recruit as many youth and adults as we can. We do however want her to be aware of BSA policy and the problem that ignoring it could cause.

[Beavah]

Yah. I get it. It's all about rules and authority.

 

I just disagree, eh? It's about service, and kindness, and doin' the right thing.

 

But we can do Authority, too. Though I worry sometimes about the long-term success of a program like that, eh?

 

I had to talk to Irving today anyway, so I also connected with Charles Holmes, the National Director of Venturing and creator of the Venturing program. Charles is a great chap, partly because he comes from da northern midwest, no doubt (even if it is that state...)

 

The official word is...

 

"We don't have this anywhere in writing. And it's different for crews with high schoolers and crews that are college-aged youth who are all mature adults. We recognize that it's not our place to control or monitor the behavior of young adults outside of the program. We just ask that within the program (on trips and such), that their behavior reflects the ethical standards of the BSA and especially of the church or other chartered organization. We think the crew leadership and the Chartered Partner should have the say". (Emphasis his, not mine)

 

We went on to have an interesting conversation about the growth of Venturing, particularly within individual large chartered partners, and the use of Venturing in college-aged populations. Also about crews he knew with married or other "couples," where the issues turned around the behavior of the individual couple as decided by the crew itself.

 

In response to Jenn's specific question, with the ages she gave me, "no problem" (if it's OK with the CO, of course). Just be good examples and courteous crew members.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

"We don't have this anywhere in writing" Says it all. I just can't understand why Mr. Holmes and National sided with our SE in the three cases here in CAC. Even after formal petitions to reinstate were filed with National they said the decision of the SE was in keeping with National's YP policy. Go Figure Eh

LongHaul

[SR540Beaver]

Hmmmmm, perhaps OGE should ring Mr. Holmes up and provide him with the Venturing Youth Protection guidelines from national's website so he can see the written policy. It is kind of scary that the guy who is supposed to be in charge of something doesn't even know the policies of his own program.

 

Of course if I recall in the sod surfing incident, the poster claimed that the DE told the unit that if they didn't call it a unit activity, they could do what they wanted.

[SR540Beaver]

I was taking a look at the online Venturing Youth Protection training and clicked on the FAQ link towards the bottom right. The second question in the FAQ asks:

 

Q. In a coed crew, is it permissible to allow a 21 year old male to date an 18 year old female?

 

A. When an adult leader of any age is dating a youth member, it is considered fraternization. As presented in Personal Safety Guidelines for Venture Leaders, registered adult leaders cannot maintain a dating relationship with registered youth members.

 

Regardless of what Mr. Holmes has allegedly said over the phone, the written information from the BSA states something entirely different. Jens, I'd stick with written information from the BSA website over hearsay. That is the safest and most prudent approach.

[SR540Beaver]

In addition.....if you actually take the online Venturing Youth Protection training test, you come across questions 22 and 23 of 25. Question 22 is:

 

An adult and youth member can date as long as the youth member is 18 years of age or older.

 

The correct answer is:

 

False

 

Question 23 of 25 is:

 

Two youth members who are dating can continue after one of them becomes 21 and registers as an adult member.

 

The correct answer is:

 

False

[Beavah]

I remember once helpin' with a troop whitewater trip. Da Scoutmaster was a decent enough chap. I recall, though, an awkward scene where he yelled at the professional guide because "it was against the rules to stand up in a paddle craft." Of course, we all recognize that there are times when it's perfectly appropriate and even necessary to stand up in a paddle craft (like when you're approachin' a rapid and need to get a bit better view so as to position your boat for the entrance). It's a common professional practice, eh? Even improves safety.

 

That doesn't make the rule wrong. Beginners and folks in general should stay seated or kneeling in a paddle craft most of da time.

 

But it does show that there's a difference between quotin' a rule, and understandin' the rule. Or knowin' the way things really work.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So, Beavah, what you are stating is when the speed limit is 25 MPH and you really need to get to the corner store, get the milk and get back before halftime is over, then its ok to go 50 MPH, because there are time when rules aren't important?

 

I don't dispute that you were told what you were told, but it does degrade an already fairly jaundiced view of professionals that I hold and is slipping rapidly. As I stated in my post, I gace what the rules are, if they don't have to be followed, why have them? It's not a question of authority and rules, it's being a good citizen of the program. If the dating rules are a lot looser than is published, why not publish them? Such things are the reason why there are so many "urban legends" in scouting. I for one have just about had it, if the ground moves this easy, why bother?

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah,

 

No, it isn't all about rules and authority.

 

Yes, it is about service, and kindness, and doing the right thing.

 

That being said, please tell me how encouarging youth members to overlook the rules and authority and to treat them as some sort of mere guidelines to conveniently pick and choose from is serving them or doing the right thing?

 

I'm pretty sure you know the mission of the BSA. It is, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

I'm also sure you know the vision of the BSA. It is: "Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program."

 

I won't bother to post the Oath and Law because I know you can quote them from memory.

 

It has become obvious that you have issues with rules and authority and see them as impeding a good program and allowing you to provide service, kindness and doing the right thing. You seem to not find any rule unworthy of being broken. The "rules" of the Oath and Law are part and parcel of the mission and vision of BSA to instill values and help youth learn to make ethical and moral choices over a lifetime and become good citizens.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I for one wish you would quit encouraging youth members to flaunt the YP policies of the program based on a discussion over the phone. It is not "official" as you stated. Jenn is better off following what she can read in black and white from the BSA's website or printed material than taking your word for it.

 

Encouraging registered adults to do their own thing is one thing, doing it with the youth is something entirely different. With all due respect, you are wrong on this one.

 

[RangerT]

It just goes to show you that even the National office can give you incorrect information. In my opinion we have this printed in several official pubs yet unless this comes up in a court case it will always be one of those nebulous questions.

 

I think this Jenn person, if she even truly exsists, set this up as a bait and hook to cause some discord in here for whatever motive, and she was successful. It probably would be best to recognize this question for what it truly is and let it go.

[FScouter]

"No, it isn't all about rules and authority.

Yes, it is about service, and kindness, and doing the right thing."

 

Gee I hope we're not implying that this is either/or. Rules and authority don't prevent service, kindness, and doing the right thing.

[John-in-KC]

I say again (who else recognizes that radio procedure? )...

 

We are, every one of us on this Forum, too far away from the situation and lacking too many details to make a specific call on Miss Jenn's question.

 

There is one and only one place for her and her fiance` to ask this question: That is in the office of the local Council Scout Executive.

 

As they are affianced, we can give some general guidance.

 

If they marry in the near future, I do not think the guidance we've given covers that situation.

 

I would not want to be the SE or Council President who wakes up to a headline of: "Local Scout unit refuses married couple permission to join"

 

One of the SE's functions is Youth Protection. He's an obligated reporting official under many state child protection laws. Let's let him earn his paycheck.

 

YIS.

[dragonn]

Our relationship existed long before the idea of starting a venture crew. It it will last far beyond. But, being a member of the leadership is important to him. I just don't want to cause trouble by joining. We are formally engaged, and our families where brought into making that decision so their 100% behind us. the links talk of sleeping arrangements and such of married couples. Even when we are married I have no problem with sleeping with the other girls. That doesnt bother me. I just want to join with him. we both do medal work with his uncle who runs the Madel work badge. He is a hobby blacksmith and we are apprentices. We do demostraciones and such but in ventures will be helping run the merit badge station at the portable forge. Something that believe it or not I'm better at then him. By spring when the crew starts up he will be 21 and an adult leader. I will not. I will still be 19. where not getting married to soon so that's really flown out the door. and all of this doesnt scare me. I just want to be informed. I understand the youth protection but, I feel that truly that doesnt apply. Nether of us believe in doing any thing until marriage so its always kept appropriate. So I don't feel that would be a factor. the dissuasion to marry was not taken lightly and will never be. I care a lot for him and understand their are things he wants to do in his life and don't want to get in the way. I just want to join him in some harmless fun