What is your perspective of a crew and how it relates to the scouting program?

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

Gee whiz folks, thank you for all the forthright and pertinent information! Plase keep it coming!

 

I am starting to understand why there is so much confusion in BSA regarding Venture. My perspective goes back to when we were called Explorers, and tends to run along the lines of a purist approach. Venture was created to enable older scouts an opportunity to utilize the interest and initial training in various badgework to a more fuller extent, while requiring a greater level of leadership training to provide highly-skilled future scouters. The latter was accomplished by requiring leadership and teaching to packs and troops in order to receive recognition with broze/gold/silver awards, and the ranger award. The program was open in order to keep from mandating a "one size fits all" approach. Even the manuals start the first chapter with a relatively lengthy explenation of the definition of venturing. We are complex, and it takes strong leadership and an open minded CO to keep a program like this focused without forming tunnel vision.

 

Lisabob - Thank you for the presentation points. This is a conglomeration of what I am hearing in the field, and it will be utilized to ensure these areas are addressed succintly.

 

All of our towns are 2 square miles. Hiram College is in the next town. They are already interested in helping promote this program and providing other assistance. Instead of having the university charter a crew, it may be more wise for the long-term benefit of the program to have a CO who's long term focus fits into venturing; such as sporting goods stores, adults outdoor clubs, and such. This may help keeping the program from "getting lost" in the politics or trends of a large institution.

 

Other than fliers on commons wall-boards, how would one grab the attention of these young adults?

 

Beavah - I think there are some very large nails you just hit squarely on the head. The focus of venture is supposed to be as a catalyst for exceptional experiences which lead to greater proficiencies whithin the five areas of venture interest while developing exceptional leadership skills beyond the ordinary levels of scouting.

 

Those five areas of interest are sports, religious life, arts & hobbies, outdoor, and sea scout. Any one activity can be accomplished as a crew activity or individually. After spending a few weeks studying their new venture/ranger books, the boys found that all of them wanted to accomplish the outdoor bronze because they all want the ranger award. (The core group are all Eagling, just about to eagle, or eagle bound.) While they are youth-run, someone has to keep them in focus. They voted on their first super-activity as a trip to Sea Base. Since we are a crew and not a scout travel tour program, we pointed out that while they could go to Sea Base and learn scuba, for the same price (at sea base) they could go with their open-water certifications in hand and have cart blanche. Now that we doubled their costs, and they all stood around scratching their heads wondering where to turn next, I took my son to the college to "explore" utilizing their resources. The Dad of another boy took him to talk with some of his diving buddies, and found a group of instructors willing to teach them all for next to nothing. This charged up the guys again, until they realized they still weren't moving, so they were reminded to schedule with these wonderful new contacts.

 

The district commish came to their last meeting (and the committee meeting) to see how we were all doing. He was quite serious about how difficult it can be to get into sea base (with a lot of weight to his words as a previous captain (?-right term-?). One immediately made a motion to hold a New Years Eve party so at 12:01 a.m. everyone could be awake and together to start flooding sea base with reservation requests. (We'll clean that one up a bit and get them to have more solid reservation guidelines prior to Jan 1 :-)

 

The point is - the adults involved in the program don't need to necessarily be experts in various sports, but they DO need to have a strong sense of the program as developed by BSA, AND keep everyone in perspective. The committee members involved with one activity will tend to focus solely on that committee. Other will want to run the whole thing because of course they are more efficient, their adults, not youth. Someone has to keep them all on track for whatever program; group or individual, they are all doing. Someone has to maintain the focus. And remember, then some are working on individual projects or Eagle!

 

Does that give a little better idea to those of you not involved with a crew what it is like on the inside? I can't speak for every other Advisor or leader out there - we are all different. BSA set out an excellent core program to help crews focus, but I don't know if they use any of the manuals or get any training. I wonder if part of the confustion for scouters and identity crises of crews is that BSA does not seem to require or suggest the program they developed to be followed, and since it is not a requirement, the adults don't even look into it.

[Eamonn]

Aidan,

It really sounds as if things are working really well.

I'm a little confused as to why you want to "Win over" the Scoutmasters?

If a Scout is on the receiving end of a program that he likes and if he is happy? I'm fine with him being a Scout.

To be honest the Boy Scouts we have in the Ship really have at times a hard time knowing where their loyalty should lay.

We have Boy Scouts from different Troops. So that along with all the other activities that are going on makes it impossible to avoid clashes.

Most of the Boy Scouts tell me that they are only remaining with "Their" Troop until they reach Eagle.

I don't know how the SM's feel about that?

Sadly most of the Troops seem to have only a handful of older Scouts and a large number of the very young Scouts. One thing I hear a lot from these Lads who are in both a Troop and the Ship is that they dislike having to work with the "Little Kids!"

I know some people are going to say that they shouldn't feel this way, but the fact of the matter is they do.

If everything was as it should be, when a SM who seen that a Scout was starting to lose interest in the Troop he or she would try and direct him to a Venturing program. But that doesn't seem to happen that often and maybe (And I'm not sure!!) this is why we have so many small Crews spring up?

It has been mentioned to me at times that the Ship doesn't participate in District events. The real truth is that the District doesn't offer any events for Venturing.

The District has a First Aid Competition, but is or would it be fair for 11 and 12 year old Boy Scouts to compete against 18 and 19 year old Sea Scouts? I think not, the same goes for Camporees.

Sure we could offer to help, but for us to provide the quality program and cover all the things we want and need to cover spending time doing this when we have so many activities is not in the best interest of the Ship. We don't invite Boy Scouts to participate as Boy Scouts in Day Camp or Pine Wood Derbies.

Hey OGE,

I was down your way on Saturday, in Milford PA. We picked up a Boat that was donated. Man Oh Man that was a long drive 640 miles round trip.

It's a great looking boat!! So it was worth while.

I had a little drive around while I was there. It really could be The Promised Land for Scouting and Scouting activities (Not bad for Sea Scouting either!!)

Eamonn.

[OldGreyEagle]

Heck Eamonn you should have said something you were only 70 miles or so, they had the Celtic Festival going on and perhaps we could have taken in the Caber tossing or border collie competition. At the very least we could have sampled some of the non scouting aproved beverages unless the Quarter Deck was around in which case it would have been a lusty mug o' Birch Beer.

 

Now, see if you would have been there on friday, we could have seen the Haggis eating contest

 

http://www.celticculturalalliance.org/

[emb021]

"I am starting to understand why there is so much confusion in BSA regarding Venture."

 

Well, when people get confused by the name, it doesn't help.

 

Venture and Venturing are NOT interchangable terms. They are NOT the same program.

 

Venture is an option program for old boys within a Boy Scout Troop, were they form a Venture Patrol.

 

VenturING is the BSA's co-ed program for youth 14-21.

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't confuse the terms.

 

"They made an effort to educate the pack and troop leaders that were present, but from what I am hearing from seasoned leaders, this can not be the norm. It seams (and this is only my impression) that once a scouter takes a training, it would be beneath them to ever take that training again. "

 

Always a problem. Solution is to use Roundtables, which are ongoing supplemental training, as your venue for this. There are a LOT of resources. BSA has several videos on Venturing. The USScouting Service Project site have a lot of great PPT presentations you can use.

 

"I have heard in the past that there was confusion at the district/council level about what kinds of events troops and crews could participate in together. I don't think that's the main issue any more though. I know that crews are "allowed" to participate in things like camporees, etc.. What I don't know is whether, or how, they are encourage to attend."

 

The thing to realize is "What's in it for the Venturing Crews" to atten Camporees, Scout Shows, etc? Too often Camporees are aimed solely at the Boy Scouts, with little or nothing for the Venturers. Too often they view the Venturers solely as staff. Scout Shows can also be a problem because most Crews are too small to setup and staff their own booth. What is more successful is having a single booth for all Venturing/Sea Scout units in the council, as a way to promote Venturing/Sea Scouting to everyone.

 

A better idea is to have events JUST for Venturers. Get Venturers from other councils to come. In my area almost all the council-level Venturing events promote themselves to the venturers in other councils. Its thus not surprising to have 2 or 3 or more crews from other councils coming to your Venturing event.

 

As to College crews, yes the 21 cut off for adults is a problem, as there are many college students who are over 21. One of the reasons I wish the BSA would bring back Rovers, as the typical cut off is 25/26. Getting Alpha Phi Omega chapters goins is a better idea, however, I can tell you that many APO chapters are ALSO Venturing Crews...

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I may not be understanding the issue with over 21 college students, they become an associate advisor or a committee member, they dont have to leave the crew, their role changes

[emb021]

"I may not be understanding the issue with over 21 college students, they become an associate advisor or a committee member, they dont have to leave the crew, their role changes."

 

The thing is why should their role change just because they are over 21?

 

In an APO chapter, (or any college club), if you are a student you can be an active member of the group, an officer, etc. But in a Venturing Crew at 21 you have to give that all up and only be an 'adult' member of the crew.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, again I dont see the big deal. They go on events, they have input to the program, they can go and do whatever the crew allows, they can mentor crew members. Even in a fraternity/sorority the members eventually graduate (even Bluto did) in a Venture crew its age defined, not academic status defined.

 

Then again, most of our crew youth who aged out wanted to be adults to help with leadership roles so I may be in an unusual situtation.

[emb021]

"Ok, again I dont see the big deal. They go on events, they have input to the program, they can go and do whatever the crew allows, they can mentor crew members. Even in a fraternity/sorority the members eventually graduate (even Bluto did) in a Venture crew its age defined, not academic status defined."

 

First off, its "VenturING Crew".

 

Again, in college clubs, ALL students are members and can be officers, have input, etc. ADVISORS DO NOT HAVE THE SAME LEVEL of involvment, input. There is usually an intentional separation. Having been a college student and involved with such groups, I can tell you from first hand experience THIS IS a big deal. In an APO chapter, an over-21 student member can be the Chapter President, but in a Venturing Crew no way, they can only be an adult advisor or the like. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

[Eamonn]

Thinking about it!!

I think we are lucky that we are Sea Scouts.

While I do know that we are part of Venturing, even though it seems that at times the Venturing Division forgets that we are!!

When people look at us or talk about us they seem to know that we are different from Boy Scouts.

We look different in our uniforms.

Our focus is different.

OK, so at times we do feel that we could do without all the invitations to do flag ceremonies.

Maybe the tag on the T-shirts that the Scouts came up with, which has the Saint Brendan's Cross and the words "Not Your Little Brother's Boy Scout Troop" does help remind everyone that we not Boy Scouts!!

While we do every now and then dip into the Venturing Handbook and have some Sea Scouts working toward Venturing Awards, for the most part we are busy doing Sea Scout stuff.

We do belong to the BSA family.

I'm not sure if we think about how or if we relate to the Scouting program -We are part of the Scouting program, just as Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and I suppose Varsity Scouts are.

Maybe if High Adventure Venturers were to wear helmets, carry rappelling ropes and looked the part the message that these youth members are not the Garbage Crew /Detail for District and Council events might ring out across the land.

But we are so very lucky, we have a very easily understood and laid out advancement plan. Most of the Sea Scout Ship's I know or have met, do deliver the goods. Sadly I can't say the same about High Adventure Crews.

It's kinda sad, that where we are located we have just about everything that a high adventure unit might need close at hand. You name it and I bet I can find a local resourse for it. (Well almost)

Many of the Crews in our area that claim to be high adventure are led by car camping ex-ASM's who wouldn't know high adventure if it came and bit them on the big toe.

Sure in the Council we have a few exceptional Troops, but they really are the exception and not the rule.

The District offers 3 Camporees a year, normally held at one of the two Council managed camp sites. There goes 3 months of the year, summer camp at the council camp. - 4 months gone. Nothing happening a month after camp or in December. - 6 months gone.

The older Scouts are not being challenged, so they start to vote with their feet.

Along comes the ASM who was a Scout in this very same run of the mill same old same old program, he starts a Crew and soon after the crew is camping with the troop, but the older guys are driving to the camp site and picking up late night pizza.

I'm glad we are Sea Scouts!!

Eamonn.

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

1ST AND FORMOST, I AM SO THANKFUL FOR ALL THE POINTS MADE TO MY INITIAL QUESTION. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED SO FAR AND A THANK YOU ALSO TO THOSE WHO WILL BE MAKING POSTS AS THIS PROGRESSES. This has helped prepare me for the Roundtable more than any other notes or necessities as this has given me insight into the types of questions which may be asked; however, the greatest benefit has been the need to me to examine these points and ensure my information and understanding are bang-on solid.

 

embo21 - The Venture/Ranger handbook states, "venturing is a catalyst." on page 2. The BSA uses the word Venturing throughout all of its liturature as the action (verb) of the program (noun). High Adventure is available to scouts 14 and over within a troop. A troop may have a high adventure patrol or activities.

 

Eamonn- Thank you for some very good questions. I have to run on an appointment, but maybe the best thing to do is run down a little of what we have been going through to get this going on this end. I am committed to not allowing the crew to be pulled into the politics that can sometimes arise, but possibly that is exactly what is happening.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Monday Madness has overflowed to Tuesday!

[emb021]

"The Venture/Ranger handbook states, "venturing is a catalyst." on page 2. The BSA uses the word Venturing throughout all of its liturature as the action (verb) of the program (noun). High Adventure is available to scouts 14 and over within a troop. A troop may have a high adventure patrol or activities."

 

I am not sure the point of your statement here.

 

As noted, Venturing is the BSA's program for 14-21 youth, while Venture is an optional program for Boy Scout Troops to allow 13 and older boys to do high adventure/sports activities on their own (as a Venture Patrol).

 

Also, its the Venturer Handbook/Ranger Guidebook, not Venture Handbook.

 

Please take a look at the on-line Language of Scouting here: http://www.scouting.org/identity/los/index.html

 

I recommend you look up the terms Venture, Venture Patrol, Venturer, Venturing, Venturing Crew, etc and LEARN THE TERMS.

 

Its very important that you know and understand these terms and that you teach them. Some of the biggest problems we in Venturing face is the confusion by scouters regarding the Venture patrol and Venturing. Too often people think that the Venture Patrol is nothing more the "Venturing in the Troop" and this leads to nonsense like having Venture Patrol members wearing the green shirt with red loops, etc.

 

 

 

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

Thank you emb021 for the web reference. I am going through all of the materials we have had to create on our own and make sure they are in the right format.

 

Eamonn - You asked about the need to "win over" scout masters. We are in a highly rural area. When something negative is said to a youth (the venturer), or group (the troop to which the venturer belongs)about venturing, it is passed through the school chain to a large segment of our recruitable youth. Thus, the potential scout/venturer is lost. Add to that the negativity these youth receive when at their troop meetings and events. This is from the adults. There seems to be a lot of politics and a lot of "fiefdoms" in this area; maybe that is true of troops/districts/councils in general. Then there's the council, which is not versed in venturing, nor appears to necessarily like the concept. Their perspective is that for this crew to be sustainable, we need the support of the troops and we should be supporting the council and troops. I get the impression that if this is not accomplished, they will not support us. I don't know. Maybe virtual seperation is a good thing, other than we file everything through them and it would make life much easier if they understood what we were doing.

 

We may have something in common. The more I research how other crews in the region - not just our council - are run, the more I take issue with how they are run. No wonder it has been difficult to get this running, and no wonder some are so darned negative over the program. That's why the "re-education" guised as an introduction to our crew at Round Table. To set Crew 17 apart from the "un-crews" or "crew-lites" that tend not to last past a year or make it so far is the original youth age-out.

 

This crew was started to provide area youth (cross-district & council due to our location) with an outlet to augment their scouting experience, or for those that did not choose scouting to participate. The charter members wanted more exposure to a myriad of interests, while some from very large troops or very disorganized troops wanted more leadership training.

 

Eamonn wrote:

Sadly most of the Troops seem to have only a handful of older Scouts and a large number of the very young Scouts. One thing I hear a lot from these Lads who are in both a Troop and the Ship is that they dislike having to work with the "Little Kids!"

I know some people are going to say that they shouldn't feel this way, but the fact of the matter is they do.

If everything was as it should be, when a SM who seen that a Scout was starting to lose interest in the Troop he or she would try and direct him to a Venturing program. But that doesn't seem to happen that often and maybe (And I'm not sure!!) this is why we have so many small Crews spring up? [end Eamonn wrote]

 

This is very true here. Personally, I am tired of seeing such a drop rate. Especially since when I talk to these boys, they either found no challenge in troop activities, found themselves the "babysitter" for the younger kids, or both. The point I want to make with the SM's is that we are not here to steal. If they see someone about to walk, mention venturing and let the crew know so we can do our part. We may be able to give them the outlet they need to refresh their desire to stay in the troop. If they still drop the troop, at least they are still in scouting.

 

Troops garner their membership from packs. I have not seen any other recruiting effort in this area by a troop recruiting anyone outside the scouting program. Maybe this is the perspective they have on our crew: we must be providing the next "crossover" point, thus taking their members. This of course, is far removed from the actual concept. This is another point I want to drive home with the SM's, with the CE, DE, and others all present.

 

The point of winter event is that it is the only thing the crew wanted to do with the troops all year. Everything else is a work project. I know they wanted to use it as a tool to build their teamwork better. But I also seriously think they are tired of the bunk from troops, and honestly think they want to attend (they even want to practice for it) to prove to everyone present - including their own troops, that they have a good thing going. The crew is primarily all male. They've been dissed and they want to prove the nay-sayers wrong. (We only have one 18 year old, the rest are 15 1/2 to 14.)

 

I envy Sea Scouts. Their program is well-defined, accepted, and by the sheer nature of their program, dno't seem to actually get involved with any of this.

 

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

To everyone who posted their ideas and opinions to my original question. Thanks also for the PM's full of useful data, programs, and resources.

The roundtable introduction was a great success!

I've been attending RT meetings plainclothes while we were all making sure we had a solid foundation as a crew and all of the adult leaders (including myself) were fully trained and prepared to communicate knowledgably with other Scouters. This tacit was also useful in providing a great deal of curiosity, as our district is very big on "shirt reading" and the collection of all things necessitating gluing or sewing.

The crew at first opted out of a 1st class uniform on the basis that one of our youngest men said best, "I don't care how many things I can attach to my shirt, I care about how many things I can learn."

I told them I thought it would be best if at least a few of the adults that would be in front of other Scouters and council had a shirt for those occasions. They agreed, and since we had all worked hard to make 100% quality unit, be trained, and rack up over 100 Good Turn For America hours in the past few months, there would be something to "read" at the meeting.

As soon as the rain shirt over cover was off, the whole room looked like a big contagion of turning heads.

A few moments later, I was asked to speak, and at that moment, you could have heard a pin drop on the opposite side of the auditorium.

After introducing myself and my crew affiliation, I started with a question. Could anyone give me the BSA definition of a Venturing Crew. Lots of unsure looks but no takers. So they were first given a definition of what Venturing was NOT, based on what I had heard through the months from this region and from this forum. This immediately allayed their fears and their anticipation as to the true definition was palpable.

After paraphrasing the Venturer/Ranger Handbook (which was on hand and available to all) excitement started to build.

The next few minutes was spent addressing their retention concerns, as like many other regions, we lose a goodly number of our 14 & up scouts. Options to retain scouts aging out was also discussed. This truly brought a great deal of relief. SM's & ASM's started asking questions in rapid succession in retaining their scouts at-risk of quitting. I gave a profile of our membership, including helping find a scout troop for new members who had never been in scouting, and their younger siblings that wanted to do what their big brother was doing. Even the SM & ASM of two scouts who left and joined the crew confirmed my commitment to retention, and plainly stated nothing else would have kept them in scouting.

We went over the spirit of Venturing and how it was being applied in our crew. Everyone received multiple BSA tri-folds on Venturing to give their scouts and parents. We detailed our super-activity and some of our upcoming activities, providing crew tri-folds titled "Destination: SeaBase". The presentation turned into a terrific animated conversation, with the Scouters really pumping up.

 

The benefits have been wonderful, and all of your advise and knowledge was no small part of this success. I could not have been this proactive without all of your awesome input.

We are no longer vultures to the troops. We have received great advise, questions, and support from SM's, ASM's, & CM's. Council no longer acts as if we have "black-sheep" status, and has been a help instead of a hindrance.

My apologies for taking a few weeks to get this out. Between working on a number of projects, crew, scouts, band, wrestling, LOST, and the inevitable minor emergencies, things have been beyond hectic.

 

Thanks for the advise on Powder Horn. I tried to make the upcoming Pitt. dual-weekend, but between other responsibilities and the need "stash" a teen somewhere for the weekend (AKA single-mom-syndrome)it will have to wait for the Cleve. course in the spring.

 

We are only 45 min. from Pitt. on the Ohio side. Anyone knowing of a training program pertinent to running a crew feel free to drop a line. Through all this, we have met some great crews here in NE Ohio and hope to visit with each of them. They have also discussed getting together the crews in the region for some fun.

 

Again, thanks to all. Everything we do, from recruitment to forms approvals has been made easier by creating a culture of solidarity. And I truly appreciate every single one of you!

 

Sincerely,

 

Mic

 

[emb021]

"The crew at first opted out of a 1st class uniform on the basis that one of our youngest men said best, "I don't care how many things I can attach to my shirt, I care about how many things I can learn."

I told them I thought it would be best if at least a few of the adults that would be in front of other Scouters and council had a shirt for those occasions. They agreed, and since we had all worked hard to make 100% quality unit, be trained, and rack up over 100 Good Turn For America hours in the past few months, there would be something to "read" at the meeting."

 

A comment on uniforms.

 

I always emphasis that crews are free to choice their uniform, or even not have a uniform.

 

HOWEVER, I always recommend that if the crew does not want to have a uniform (or even goes with a t-shirt or polo shirt) that they NOT deny members (include adults) the option of using the BSA Venturing uniform.

 

In situations in which a BSA uniform is expected (if not required), members should feel free to obtain one and wear it. I actually find that if Venturers are working with other scouts, scouters and venturers, many of them want and will wear the Venturing uniform. I was at our council VOA (that's Venturing Officers Association) meeting, and its surprising how many of the youth were in their uniforms. We adults have never asked that they wear them at these meetings, they all have them and wear them.

 

And, as I note, there are times in which the uniform WILL be mandated. For instance, the Venturers attending the World Jamboree WILL be wearing the BSA Venturing uniform. If they attend the National Jamboree, same thing applies.