Transfer charter, how?

[LittleCarl]

This subject has been adressed previously but I can't find the thread.

 

Short version: My unit's original CR WAS scouting in this County going all the way back to WWII. While he was alive our pack/troop had no problems with the CO. Since his death, the Scouts have become the scapegoat for all of the Church's problems. Any dirt or damage is laid at our feet-even if the troop is in a different atate at camp! Both pack and troop are now confined to a single room in the Church (different nights). We are allowed to only use HALF the lights in that room. The Church President has even "suggested" the Scouts start paying part of the electric bill since we do a fundraiser on their property.

Our CR/Committe Chair and Unit Commissioner (husband and wife) attend the church and refuse to question the CO.

To complicate matters the CR/CC/UC insists that all of our equipment/cash "belongs to the CO". (Note: only our trailer license mentions the CO, we shop under the Council's FEIN, the CO has NEVER provided any financial aid to pack/troop.)

My CR has provided the regs that say if we FAIL to recharter we lose everything BUT, refuses to discuss or research TRANSFERING the charter.

 

I feel the pack/troop have been long since abandoned by the CO and they are just nit picking us until we leave. I can get other Churches and/or several local groups to charter us AND follow the charter.

[CubsRgr8]

Yes, the CO owns all assets of the troop, there's just no way around that. Remember also that you (and all other registered leader) serve at the pleasure of the COR.

 

Stronger ties between the CO and your troop could possibly repair the damaged relationship. How about a real focused recruiting effort aimed at CO youth and families. What type of service projects does the troop do for the CO? My son's troop hosts an annual pancake breakfast for the entire church membership; the scouts usher and attend services on Scout Sunday; it donates all the Christmas wreaths for the church; and it encourages Eagle projects which benefit the CO (ie refurbishing the fellowship hall).

 

Why the apparent emphasis on troop assets? Are they considerable? Does the COR want them for another purpose like the religious youth group? If so, perhaps they would charter a venture crew, as youth ministry is an available venture crew focus. Hopefully your committee bylaws allow individuals scout account funds to follow a scout to a new troop.

 

Bottom line though, if you feel there is no hope, run! - don't walk - to a new CO NOW! It's not too late to charter a new troop in time to take advantage of this fall's recruiting effort. Pick the CO which best understands the Mission, Aims and Methods of scouting and is willing to charter a troop as a service to the youth of the community. Don't let your enthusiasm for scouting, and that of your scouts and the other leaders, whither away.

 

 

[Overtrained]

One of the duties of the District Executive is to work with the Chartered Organization to help them understand their relationship. The organization is to use scouting to further their mission of serving youth. It seems that this idea has been lost and they see the unit as just a group that meets there.

 

I'd talk to your DE and ask for help.

 

As to the equipment and such, it does belong to them. I think the DE has a form the Charter Organization can sign to release the unit number back to the council for use, but I don't know that that extends to the equipment. Again, ask your DE.

[nldscout]

Here is a question relating to this area. Everyone says the CO owns everything, a point which I dispute as no one has yet been able to show me or anyone a R&R that says that, Whats to stop a committee who is in this kind of situation from disposing of the troop equipment by transfering it to other troops? Say the committee like in this situation knows the CO is maybe looking to get rid of the troop, so you transfer ownership of the equipment to a neighboring troop, who then "holds" it for you until you recharter somewhere else. If the committee that the COR has approved votes to do this, whats to stop them?

 

Everyone says the funds and equipment belong to the CO, but that depends on which state you live in. Any lawyer will tell you that property laws vary greatly from state to state.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Everyone says the funds and equipment belong to the CO, but that depends on which state you live in."

 

I'm sure that some one else can answer this better than I can but I'll give it a shot.

 

BSA units don't exist as legal entities unto themselves. They have no papers of incorporation, there are no partnership agreements, nothing. They exist, under the agreements signed by the Charter Organization, as part of the Charter Organization. Just like the choir robes belong to the church, so do the Boy Scout canoes.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

From stories that I've heard, I consider myself lucky that my unit isn't chartered by a church. I've heard horror stories from other Scouters.

 

The common thread is that a church starts a Boy Scout troop with the idea of it being part of their youth ministry, which is appropriate and good. Many of the boys from church join and thing go well. The church gives great support to the troop because, "after all, they are our kids." Over time, the troop grows and many kids from outside the church join because they have friends in the troop.

 

Evenutally, someone in the church develops a resentment toward the troop. "Why are we letting them use the church hall and not charging them? Most of those boys don't even go here." One well placed grumbler can start many grumbling.

 

First it is the money. "We give them X dollars and . . ." Then comes, "Do you know how much money the Scout Troop has? Why do they need that much money and if they have that much, why do we give them stuff?"

 

Soon, many things are laid at the feet of the Boy Scouts. Backed up toilet, the Boy Scouts did it. All the chalk is gone, the Boy Scouts did it. Something is missing, the Boy Scouts took it.

 

I don't know the solution. One thing that I do know is that it isn't a very Christian attitude.

[silver-shark]

"Everyone says the funds and equipment belong to the CO, but that depends on which state you live in. Any lawyer will tell you that property laws vary greatly from state to state."

 

Page 7 0f the Troop Committee Guidebook states, "The troop is "owned" by the chartered organization, which receives..."

 

Basically, everything that is earned by the troop is done so in the name of the troop and the BSA, and the troop is "owned" by the CO.

 

Regarding the meeting room scenario, the same page also states, "Each chratered organization using the Scouting program provides a meeting place, selects a Scoutmaster, appoints a troop committee of at least..."

 

The advice to get the DE involved is probably the best way to diffuse the situation as this COR obviously feels that the troop is a completely separate/foreign entity invading their church, not actually a part of the church. The Scoutmaster and CC should also be present.

[LittleCarl]

Thank you for your responses and suggestions!

Equipment and funds are only an issue for my troop/pack because the CR/CC/UC fear 'losing' it all. Actually all of this equipment was donated to us or purchased by the past and current SM. I doubt, if push came to shove, that the CO would actually want anything but the cash.

My DE avoids controversy beyond "Boy Talks" (see BobWhite's many posts on the DE's job/responsibilities) and refers all tothe DC who refers it to my CR/CC/UC.

I would be "running, not walking" already but there is a LOT of inertia even among the parents who understand what this program COULD be!

[dsteele]

Littlecarl;

 

When you start getting into the intracacies of the charter relationship between the BSA -- and it's just that; more than a relationship between a chartered organization and the local unit -- it is an agreement between the chartered organization and the Boy Scouts of America, you get beyond the knowledge level of the average District Executive very quickly.

 

Several replies on this thread have told much of the truth. Your chartered organization owns your unit. However, the funds your unit has raised in the name of the BSA are not the property of the chartered organization. Someone pointed out that if the Chartered organization is wiling to relinquish the number and the relationship, you can easily be moved to a more accepting organization.

 

My suggestion (and no offense to your DE who probably doesn't have the knowledge base and I hope you don't mean to offend them) is to let the DE know that you would like to have a meeting with their supervisor or the Scout Executive, or Director of Field Service, Field Director, whoever is a council-level executive and ask your questions of them. To make it a little easier (and a learning experience for the DE) invite the DE to be part of the meeting. Go in with your facts delivered matter-of-factly and prepared to listen carefully.

 

I hope the results will improve your impressions of professional scouters. Most of us are truly here to help.

 

DS

[matuawarrior]

Welcome LittleCarl . . .

 

I had to reread each post to understand what was going on here. I have to agree though with everyone that the "unit" belongs to the Chartered Org. I'm the Institutional Head of my Chartered Organization and also the Scoutmaster/Crew Advisor. So yes, everyone pointed that out. That means even the equipment that was donated by whomever and all the funds that are in a separate bank account belongs to the Charter Org. Moving Forward . . .

 

It feels that communication and lack of training are the main factors involved in this situation. The other point maybe control of the unit. It may seem that the Church is now resentful of the Scout Troop. It's easy to be a scapegoat when you're not around to defend yourselves. The best way to diffuse that is to be a "Blessing" within the Church. Talk to the Scouts and have them think of ways of going back to the unit's roots.

 

Adding to CubsRgr8:

 

What kind of community service does your Chartered Organization need that hasn't been done?

 

Do you have elderly members in the congregation that need help with their yards?

 

Do you tithe a percentage of what the unit makes in your fundraising? I mean this is a Christian Church, correct. The PLC could designate the patrol or volunteers to present your unit tithes one Sunday a month.

 

There are so many ways to become a Blessing. Here are others tidbits that may help.

 

Invite your IH to your meetings.

 

Recruit extensively from the Charter Org first,Youth and Adults, before going outside.

 

Check if you have posiible MB counselors within the Church.

 

When the Church has a special event, have the Scouts wear their uniforms and have them network among the Church Family.

 

 

Now should the above mention fail to repair any rifts between the unit and Charter Organization. Then I suggest that you go see your DE and have him help you start a new unit. Will you get the same number? Probably not. Will you get the equipment? With the situation that bad now, I doubt it. It takes five adults and five youth to start a unit. But I highly recommend that the unit patches things up first before they leave to a new home.

 

Matua

[Bob58]

If your heart is set on transferring the charter go for it. We've had 2 units do just that over the last three years. The parents felt that the history was w/ the families & the old Partner was actually happy to see the Unit number live on even though they no longer held the charter.

 

Know that while the law varies from state to state the question of who owns what is partly addressed by BSA in Article XI, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Rules & Regulations of the BSA. IN the event that a unit is not rechartered the funds and property that were "owned" by the unit become the property of BSA, actually the local council, through district action. Several councils refer to the above rules when they use the UNREREGISTERED UNIT REPORT, form No.28-403K (10M1097) in the event that a unit fails to recharter (i.e. the Charter Partner declines to renew or the interest in the unit "just dried up" whatever the cause...) That form includes a "Report of Disposition of Unit Funds and Property" that is to be completed if the unit is to be "permanently dropped. This could be one reason that some units with good relationships w/ Chartering Organinzations keep their funds w/ their Chartering org. & not in the separateunit accounts; it also explains why other units might choose to keep a bare minimum in a unit account w/ council. Didn't mean to overfeed the campfire, but the rules are there if you need them.

 

Dan, I rec'd this info at District Commissioner's Training and have heard it repeated by volunteeers & professionals. Doe it fit w/ your info?

 

Bob

[Bob White]

As DS points out you are not transfering the charter, you are transfering each individual person's membership. Only the chartering organization can approve or negate a charter relationship with the local council and BSA. The members can go to another existing charter but do not have the authority to cancel an organizations relationship to scouting.

 

Bob White

[Bob58]

I'd think seriously about tranfering the charter, but I see two sides. You keep the history & memorialize the CR (Chartered org Rep?) that was so highly respected, but you risk the bad name associated w/ your reccent relatuionshoip w/ the old Partner.

I was mistaken earlier, one chartering organization dropped scouting because of the gay issue and two new Partners were found; neither of the new partners was prepared to adopt Pack & Troop, and each was allowed to retain the"old number". We also had one church pick up the charter for the pack which had been chartered by a neighborinng church. They had shared the numbers & responsibilities for over 5o years but eventually one of the churches actually folded. (Not the scout program!-- its all that survived!)

 

[Bob White]

Bob, that is not a charter transfer. That is the original charter organization releasing it's unit numbers to the council to be reassigned. There is no such thing as a charter transfer. Some people may erroneously refer to it as that but there is no administrative form or procedure for such a transaction (DS do you agree?) there is only a charter being ended and a new charter being formed with the membership transfering to the new charter.

 

Bob White

[Bob58]

I enjoy word games as much as anyone... but in lighjt of another recent thread: Does the unit keep its tenure when its number is reassigned to a new chartered partner or is the tenured party the chartered partner?