Need To Look Into Sea Scouts.

[Stoutwalker]

TP, leadership in Venturing is not laizze faire.

 

It is placed in the hands of the youth.

 

And, if the Crew/Ship really is there for the Youth, then they should be allowed to dictate what they wear, what adavncement scheme they wish to follow (Yep, they can choose not to use the traditional Sea Scouting advancement scheme), and what sort of program they have.

 

I agree with you about the traditions, and that the Ship should wear the standard uniforms.

 

BUT, even more than I agree with you, I believe that the the Sea Scouting/Venturing phase's needs, nor the youth's, would be served if we didn't allow them to make thier own choices, decisions, and lead for themselves.

 

Sea Scouting, Venturing, should not be Boy Scouts beefed up.

 

Forcing the traditional uniform on the Young Adults because thats what they've worn since 1912 doesn't serve the needs and wants of the youth.

 

Allowing them to decide IF that's what they want DOES.

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

Hey Good Morning,

 

It seems to me that you are describing the difference between the two programs. In Sea Scouts, the youth quarterdeck is there to lead their ship. Actually it is the neverending goal to train youth leaders to take the responsibility to step up and lead their ship. I'm just disagreeing with you about Sea Scouts, there is an advancement program to follow and there is a national standard on the uniforming to be worn.

 

If a unit does not follow the Sea Scout advancement program or where the standard Sea Scout uniform per the manual, then they would be called a Venturing Crew.

[LovetoCamp]

Hey Bob White! Welcome back from Jamboree. We'll meet you out there at the next one.

[emb021]

A few comments.

 

* Sea Scouts are part of Venturing, not the other way around. The literature that shows Council Commodores part of the Council Exec Board (which is true in most councils that have them), but not the Council Venturing Chair mainly came from the Sea Scout people, not National Venturing. As I pointed out, the National Sea Scout Committee is a SUB-Committee of the National Venturing Committee. Most of the org charts from National Venturing give NO proviso for a Council Venturing Chair or the like! They expect Venturing to be supported from the districts alongside Cub/Boy Scouting. Sadly, this isn't helping the program, so most councils are setting up Council Venturing Committees to drive the program, and be advisors to the Council Venturing Officers Associations.

 

* Ships, like Crews, can decide what uniform they want. They are NOT required to have the Official National Sea Scout Uniform, BUT, if they attend Regional/National events, they WILL be required to. And actually, they aren't that expensive. But most Ships start off with t-shirts or the like, and work to get the uniforms.

 

* However, for a Sea Scout Ship to be such, they should be using the official Sea Scout program (officer structure, advancement, etc). If they aren't, then they're really not a Sea Scout Ship, but just a Venturing Crew with an aquatic focusm, right!?!

 

* These are the Sea Scout Uniforms. Youth wear uniforms based on enlisted naval personal, adult naval officer:

 

Youth- work chambray blue uniforms

navy blue 'crackerjacks' (dress navy for winter)

white 'crackerjacks' (dress white for summer)

 

Adult- work summer tan

navy winter dress blue suits

white summer uniforms

 

My experience down south is most adults have the white summer uniforms and maybe work tan. Rarely winter blues. Youth have usually white crackerjacks or work blues. Some ships put the youth in whites similiar to the adults. Pretty much never see the navy crackerjacks. Also, you see some in coast guard style uniforms.

 

Michael Brown

[Backpacker]

Michael

 

Not to belabor the point, many councils have created a position for Venturing Chair/Coord. and that may not be in the National chart, but as the gentleman from National Venturing told us is becoming a common practice in councils with active Venturing programs. As far as the Commodore position an automatic member of the council exec. comm. the Nat. Rep stated he had not heard of that and felt that it would be at the discretion of the SE as to whether or not that was the case.

 

I do like hearing your perspective on Venturing as you really seem to know your stuff

[LovetoCamp]

In the current edition of the Sea Scout Manual, the youth have two uniforms, work blues and dress whites (the crackerjacks). There is nothing in the Sea Scout manual about youth blue dress or any type of Coast Guard uniforming.

 

In our Council, there are around 32 Venturing Crews on the books and maybe 5 or 6 who are actually active. I'm just stating what's working for us, I really don't care what you do or what you wear. But, our program is growing, we're keeping the kids, they are advancing, earning Small Boat Handler, attending SEAL, working towards Eagle and Quartermaster, all Sea Scout stuff. They are required to attend in either blue work uniform or dress white uniform or sometimes bring both. All the adult leaders have their three uniforms except one. He'll need to acquire his dress blues prior to him attending Sea Badge (uh umm).

 

We meet twice a month for a three hour meeting on a Sunday afternoon and hold at least one outdoor event (sailing, shooting, scuba, skiing) per month. In the winter the ship calls themselves Ski Scouts.

 

I wish all you leaders reading all the luck in the world in your pursuit of delivering the promise!

[Bob White]

According to the Sea Scout Manual, Trail Pounder is correct regarding the uniforming. In fact in 2003 the National Sea Scout Commodore and her executive committee MANDATED the wearing of the official navy uniforms for Sea Scouting.

 

That would be the work blues and dress whites for youth. Work tans, dress whites, and dress blues for adults. No other uniform wear is approved by the BSA.

 

Sea Scouting is not the same as Venturing in any way, they merely are served by the same support division at the national level. Sea Scouting existed decades before Exploring or Venturing.

 

While the national service division is called Venturing, it serves both Venturing and Sea Scouting and if you look at the the council by-laws it is Sea Scout Coordinator or Commodore who is an executive board member and the the Venturing coordinator is not. While some councils may have created a general committee position of Venturing coordinator there is no position for it on the executive board in the by-laws unless the council has specifically done so, and if they had investigated the national structure they would see it was a subordinate position to the Sea Scout Committee.

 

There is no badge of office for a Venture coordinator according to the current Insignia Guide, at the council, regional or national level but there are Sea Scout Offices in all those levels. National shows Venturing as a subcommittee under the National Sea Scout Committee.

 

While your opinion may differ, if you were to investigate the BSA resources I think you will would find this information to be correct.

 

Backpacker, when you say a "National Representative", who or what exactly is that since there is no such position in scouting either in the volunteer or the professional ranks.

 

As Far as were I get my information I got it from The Insignia Guide, The Council By-Laws, A member of the Western Region Sea Scout Committee, and the Sea Scout Manual.

 

The Only Venturing position even mentioned is on the District level and that is the Venturing Roundtable Commissioner who is a part of the District Commissioners staff. No Venturing office appears at the council region or National levels.

 

Where did you get your information from?

 

If infact your misidentified "Nat. Rep." were familiar with the National Executive Committee they would be extremely familiar with the staus of Sea Scouting since the National Commodore is a long time and hugely influential member of the BSA Executive Committee.

 

And by the way Backpacker... most Sea Scout Ships are sail boats and any motors are only used to manuever in and out of the dock so fuel costs are not prohibitive. And there is no more cost to equipment than a troop has since we simply have swapped the costs of maintaining the boats with the costs of tents cook kits, etc. There is little budget difference. And the cost of licensing and insurance is little different than costs incurred by troops with their own vehicles and trailers. Ands as far as their health as a program, there are more national and regional activities for Sea Scouting than for Venturing, and Sea Scouting has a huge national trust fund that insures its continuation well into the future, Venturing does not.

 

So your pretty much off the mark on every point you made.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Backpacker]

BOB,

What I said is borne out on the National BSA website, you should look it up sometime.

 

Second you are still wrong about what division is under what, again it is clearly shown on the National site, so quit trying to throw that misinformation around please.

 

Third the rep we met with works for the Venturing division at National and we were talking about a local council exec. committee not the National one. So once again you misrepresent the facts with your own incorrect interpretation. My info comes direct from National, not the fictional world of BobWhite scouting.

[Bob White]

Backpacker, I invite you to share the specific page link at the national site that supports anything you said or rebuffs anything I said.

 

The only thing you will find is what I have already said that both Sea Scouting and Venturing are served by the Venturing division of the BSA.

 

However if you looked in the Insignia Guide on pages 43,44, and 45 where the official badges of office for district council regional and national are listed you will find no Venturing positions other than the roundtable commissioner, HOWEVER the Sea Scout Committee representatives are shown at EVERY level.

 

And I am confident you have never looked at the Council By-laws based on you past posts.

 

While it is easy for you to say that I have given misinformation but can give specific BSA references to support your positions as I have, or you are simply going to continue your personal vindictiveness and offer no real information that helps other posters to better understand the program.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[LovetoCamp]

Bob, did you kick backpacker's dog in a past life? Nice research.

 

Another idea for you Eamonn, would be to hold your meetings near some water. If you have a boat club or a yacht club on a lake or river, it has been my experience that the club members love to see scouts out boating around. Last Father's Day weekend we got in a huge amount of sail time, and before we left our ship sat together in dress whites at a breakfast buffet at the yacht club we were visiting. I overheard one member whisper, "those are Sea Scouts, they've been racing in the harbor." Then I overheard a lady whisper to her table, "Don't those Sea Scouts look fabulous?" LOL. By golly, we did look fabulous.

[emb021]

Again, multiple comments.

 

* While the 'official' org charts do not set down the position of a Council Venturing Committee (as I said, most org charts you do see have the district support Venturing at that level from the existing camping, advancement, training, etc committees), MANY councils are seeing the wisdom in doing so and setting them up. Some of these councils may have already existing Sea Scout Committees, and ideally they will work together. Two of the councils I work with have them (I serve as the Vice-Chair in one, and a member of the committe in the other). I wear the "Council Committee" patch on my shoulder and green uniforms.

 

* Sea Scout Uniforms. I do not have my copy of the current SSM. AFAIK, the National uniform is ONLY mandated for Regional/National events. Use of Coast Guard-based uniforms are due to the fact that this was ok in the past (2-3 years ago). I've seen the Southern Region Commodore wearing them... Also, please use the correct terms. There is no 'dress white' in Sea Scouts. Youth wear: chambray blue work uniforms, crackerjack whites, and crackerjack blues. Adults wear: summer tan, summer white, dress blue.

 

*I have no idea what a "Venture coordinator" is (Venture is not Venturing) or a "National Representative". I have no idea of the source of "Bob White's" claim that National shows the Venturing committee under the Sea Scout committee. Just not so. ALSO, there ARE Venturing Officers at National, Regional, and Council levels. They don't have special insignia shown in the Insignia Guide. There is a National Cabinet of youth officers made of a National President, 4 Regional Presidents, and the National Chief Boatswain. SOME Regionals have Regional Boatswains, and SOME Areas may have Area Venturing Presidents and maybe Area Boatswains. SOME councils, if they have organized Venturing Officer Associations &/or Sea Scout Committees will have Council VOA Presidents and Council Boatswains.

 

Check out the National Venturing Cabinet site here: http://www.nationalventuringcabinet.org/index.html

 

Also, there are (in some areas), National/Regional/Area Venturing Committees, and in some cases Sea Scout Committees at those levels.

 

However, the Venturing side uses the standard National/Regional/Area Committee patches. They never developed special patches just for Venturing at those levels. Sea Scouts have had their own insignia & structure since the 20s, but this was never developed for Exploring (Venturing predesssor). So don't use the existance/absence of special insignia as proof that such a structure does/does not exist.

 

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

I guess they didn't teach you to read down there in Texas, just like W. All you have to do is go to the National BSA site, then go to the Venturing Division link and there are all the subcategories listed that refutes most of the information you gave on your posts, but it does require you to go past the pictures and do some reading which I doubt you will be able to handle, let alone understand.

[Bob White]

embo1

 

I do have a current Sea Scout Handbook handy and the uniforms are as I listed. Tne Handbook sys there is a Youth Dress White, A youth dress blue, A youth work uniform (blue), an adult and officer Dress Blue, Dress white, and Work Tan.

 

but the Book is copyright 2002 and has not yet been updated to include the changes that were made in 2003 by the national Sea Scout Committee with dropped the youth dress blues and removed the "bugs" from the the navy cover.

 

BackPacker

Your minimalist directions simply lead to a statement that I have already said is true that Venturing and Sea Scouting are both served by the Venturing Division of the BSA. That was never in dispute. What I explained was that in the by-laws that the Sea Scouting Commodore sits in the National executive committee and thet the Venturing representative is in a subordinate position. Also that there is Badge of office for a Venturing program representative at any level in scouting other than District roundtable commissioner for venturing on the District Commissioners staff. You can verify this in the Insignia Guide.

 

Have Councils created a Venturing Coordinator or similar position? Absolutely, even my own council has, but when looking at the Council structure in the by-laws only the Sea Scout Committee head is listed as an exofficio member of the executive committee.

 

I can only imagine with 300 plus councils that all sorts of creative things happen at the council level with titles, I am only commenting on the official structure of the program.

 

It was more a "here is an interesting bit of BSA trivia I have learned and researched recently" and was in no way a mandate as to what councils need to do.

 

By the way I am not in Texas altho I have vacationed there twice. This is not the first time you have insinuated that I am a professional with the BSA which I am not.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Backpacker]

Bobby White

 

Believe me I never insinuated that you were a pro scouter, I would not insult the profession in that way. If you were trained as a professional you would understand the BSA programs much better than you do currently.

 

If you need my help to understand how to find information on the National Venturing (you notice not Sea Scouts)website just ask, it's all there in black and white. Start with the subheadings on sea scouts then go to organizational structure you might just learn something. Try not to twist what you learn this time to fit your own erroneous ideas like you have done so often.

[emb021]

>but the Book is copyright 2002 and has not yet been >updated to include the changes that were made in 2003 by >the national Sea Scout Committee with dropped the youth >dress blues and removed the "bugs" from the the navy >cover.

 

Then how are people supposed to know about these 'changes'?

 

And bad idea about dropping the "bugs". They are there as part of the various items needed on a Sea Scout uniform to avoid confusion with Naval uniforms. Yet another unneed and poor change in the Sea Scout Uniforms that Commander Keane put in place in the 20s. Like to stupid dropping of the unit numbers, which most Ships still use.