Girl Scout Gold Award Square Knot

[Tron]

I'm a little late to this party; however, I was recently asked to find the official answer by my COR for a scouter who is a Girl Scout Gold awardee. 

A locally produced knot is not authorized from what I can tell; councils can make local awards, but it has to be documented and vetted, I understand it to be a process. 

More directly to the gold award recognition aspect of this, the Guide to Awards and Insignia is very clear that awards from other scouting associations are authorized for wear above the left breast pocket (page 9). There are exceptions for non scouting organizations (religious awards, etc ... ) and they are also worn above the left breast pocket. 

[MikeS72]

39 minutes ago, Tron said:

More directly to the gold award recognition aspect of this, the Guide to Awards and Insignia is very clear that awards from other scouting associations are authorized for wear above the left breast pocket (page 9).

The part most folks miss on page 9 is that this applies to awards from a scouting association in another country.

It does say that female members of crews and ships who have earned the Gold Award may wear the pin on the left pocket flap.  At this time it does not mention female troop members, although I would not be surprised to see that change soon, as I am sure we probably have a number of female members who have earned both the Eagle rank and the GSUSA Gold Award.

[Tron]

19 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

The part most folks miss on page 9 is that this applies to awards from a scouting association in another country.

It does say that female members of crews and ships who have earned the Gold Award may wear the pin on the left pocket flap.  At this time it does not mention female troop members, although I would not be surprised to see that change soon, as I am sure we probably have a number of female members who have earned both the Eagle rank and the GSUSA Gold Award.

I guess you could say that some other scouting association that does not have an incorporated unit overseas is excluded; however, GS and many other associations that are here in the US also are incorporated overseas. As I understand it, if the scouting organization is on this list it counts: https://directory.scout.org/contacts

[mrjohns2]

19 hours ago, Tron said:

A locally produced knot is not authorized from what I can tell; councils can make local awards, but it has to be documented and vetted, I understand it to be a process. 

Short of the local SE directly approving the knot as a local variance, I think allow the gold award (which is a smallish pin) in the spot that allows awards from other scouting orgs seems to meet the letter of the law. 

[MikeS72]

3 hours ago, Tron said:

I guess you could say that some other scouting association that does not have an incorporated unit overseas is excluded; however, GS and many other associations that are here in the US also are incorporated overseas. As I understand it, if the scouting organization is on this list it counts: https://directory.scout.org/contacts

I would agree that an award by any association on the list at your link would be fine, and personally I would be in favor of BSA authorizing a knot for BSA members who have earned the Gold Award.  The directory linked here is members of the World Organization of Scouting Movements, of which GSUSA is not a member.  

As I said though, it would be a simple thing for BSA to say that in a spirit of unity among Scouts we will offer a knot for those who have earned the GSUSA Gold Award.  I would then hope that GSUSA would not object to said knot.

[RememberSchiff]

A "Golden Eagle" distinction is earned by a scout who accomplishes the highest scouting achievement in both Girl Scouts of America - the Gold Award - and Scouts BSA - the Eagle Rank.

...

While Logan Julia Seeley cherished her experiences in the Girl Scouts, witnessing her brother's BSA journey inspired her to pursue the skills and ranks offered by BSA. While in the eighth grade, the opportunity arose for female scouts to work towards Eagle Rank and Logan embraced the challenge of dual enrolling and set her sights on becoming a Golden Eagle. 

...

On May 11 Logan underwent her final challenge - the board of review - and proudly earned the esteemed "Golden Eagle" distinction in the East Carolina Council.

 

https://www.newbernsj.com/news/logan-julia-seeley-becomes-first-ever-golden-eagle-in-bsas-east-carolina-council/article_1cdf537c-a26a-5ec8-9867-566cdf31fd3e.html

[KublaiKen]

I can't even envision a scenario where I ask a girl to take her Gold Award off her BSA uniform.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, KublaiKen said:

I can't even envision a scenario where I ask a girl to take her Gold Award off her BSA uniform.

One immediately comes to mind, the other was a practice since discontinued.

The one immediately coming to mind is a public event especially one with GSUSA members will be present. Their national organization has issued specific guidelines to not allow GSUSA uniform items on BSA uniforms, and vice versa. And because it was happening GSUSA sued the BSA over the matter. I do not want them in trouble, nor another lawsuit.

Back in the day, Wood Badge and Brownsea 22, the NYLT of it's day, had very specific uniform guidelines. Onlye the council strip, either 1 or 22 depending upon the course, and patrol patch were allowed on the uniform. No awards, temporary insignia, position patches, ranks, etc allowed. But as I have stated, it has been discontinued.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Their national organization has issued specific guidelines to not allow GSUSA uniform items on BSA uniforms, and vice versa. And because it was happening GSUSA sued the BSA over the matter. I do not want them in trouble, nor another lawsuit.

🙄 What happened to brothers and sisters in scouting?

Not that I want a lawsuit either, but this suing of the other official Scouting organization in your country is very unseemly IMO. I wish GSUSA hadn't done that.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

🙄 What happened to brothers and sisters in scouting?

Not that I want a lawsuit either, but this suing of the other official Scouting organization in your country is very unseemly IMO. I wish GSUSA hadn't done that.

For the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

[Eagle94-A1]

14 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

🙄 What happened to brothers and sisters in scouting?

Not that I want a lawsuit either, but this suing of the other official Scouting organization in your country is very unseemly IMO. I wish GSUSA hadn't done that.

To Play Devil's Advocate, the "confusion"  that GSUSA says occurred, would not have happened if BSA would have won their lawsuit in the 1920s. If memory serves, BSA wanted the GSUSA to call themselves the Girl Guides of the USA. James West stated that GSUSA was using the reputation of the BSA to build their organization.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

So BSA was the one who started suing other aligned scouting organizations?

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

So BSA was the one who started suing other aligned scouting organizations?

Let’s not speak as if BSA is a monolith. ET Seaton (BSA’s exec in the 30s) was very upset that Juliet Gordon Low did not found the American organization using the name of its British counterpart “Girl Guides.” There were other outdoor organizations for girls that steered clear of  using “Scouts” as in their brand. Low stepped into that space.

The boots on the ground simply didn’t care, Seaton desired to take action so that they would care. He sought Baden Powell’s support, which Powell refused to give. BSA relented. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3346224).

The same recently occurred in the reverse with GS/USA execs. I’m sure they were hounded on many fronts to relent.

Or, as I explained to a female Eagle early this spring, “Adults ruin everything.”

[qwazse]

@Tron, all I have to say to your committee is that there are no uniform police, only insignia wonks.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@qwazse thanks for the link! That was interesting reading. (Ok, well, frustrating, but that's true of virtually anything to do with gender roles from a long time ago.)

It's very interesting that the "boots on the ground" didn't care way back then, either. Seaton doesn't look good to modern eyes, but the anonymous SM who was good with working with all scouts looks perfectly normal. 

But while BSA didn't actually sue GSUSA then, the official well-regarded leader of the organization clearly didn't want any sisters in scouting.

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's more accurate to say that the organization BSA was hostile to female scouts, but not all male scouts and scout leaders were. After all, they had no other scouting organization to be active in, so it was a take it or leave it situation. I would have done the same in their shoes. But the leadership of an organization still speaks for it, so it's also hard to say with a straight face that despite the leader's vehement and consistent opposition to female scouts, BSA didn't take a clear position on female scouts because different people inside the organization had different opinions on it. 

Similarly, GSUSA has in fact been very exclusionary towards men by policy, even though I'm sure you can find SMs and girl scouts who don't think the policies make sense there as well. It doesn't really make sense to say that GSUSA didn't really sue BSA because not everyone in GSUSA agreed it was proper. Leaders call shots on behalf of the whole organization, for better or for worse.