Girl Scout Gold Award Square Knot

[FScouter]

If someone designs, manufactures, and sells knot patches not authorized by BSA for use on a Scout uniform, it is reasonable to expect to be bashed about it. Your position on this brings doubt to the validity of the rest of your web site.

[scoutldr]

In case I was not clear, my opinion is the same as Bob's. If there is a need for new insignia, then let National know our wishes and hope that they agree. There is a precedent, since there is a square knot for those who have won awards in their fraternal organization or military (MOVSM).

 

I have also seen a knot being sold on ebay for BSA Lifeguard. Since I am a BSALG and BSALG Counselor, it is tempting, but I do not wear one because it is not authorized.

 

What I especially disagree with is creating patches and awards and other for-profit materials using BSA logos and trademarks without permission.

[Eamonn]

My couple of cents!!

While I agree that this is a good idea.

I would have no problem if both organizations got together and did manages to work out something? ( I really don't know what the feelings of the GSUSA are toward Venturing??)

Still even with the best intentions in the world, people shouldn't start adding stuff to the official BSA uniform.

If the Crew members wanted to use the patch design as a logo for a T-shirt and then make the T-shirt their uniform. That would be fine.

I am very proud that I am a Queens Scouts, and have at times worn my QS Neckerchief and woggle. I do not wear the patch on the BSA uniform (No not even as a temp patch) because it isn't a BSA award or a BSA approved patch. If one day the BSA decided that Eamonn could start to wear it, I would be fine with that. However until that day I am OK not wearing it and I sure as heck am not going to design and wear a knot.

Eagle Scouts who serve in adult leadership positions in UK Scouting can't wear their Eagle badges either. Maybe a World Scout Task force might want to look into some kind of patch that shows that youth members did reach the highest rank available to them in whatever Scout Organization or Association that they were in, but seeing how long it took for the World Friendship Badge to become accepted, I think I will be hearing Scoutmaster minutes from the Great Scoutmaster in the sky first-hand, before that comes along.

Eamonn.

[Protoclete]

Wow, this is an old thread! The question came up in another context and found this looking for insight here. Since the thread was last updated, there have been some developments, at least according to this http://www.scoutinsignia.com/cnclknot.htm:

Quote

 
Unofficial Girl Scout Gold Award square knot

Emblem Description: gold square knot representing the Girl Scout Gold Award (the highest award available in that movement) on a middle green background with a silver border (left). There is also a version which has a mylar gold border (right).

Girl Scouts of the USA (GSUSA) Gold Award (lapel) Pin, the highest award in Girl Scouting (equal to BSA's Eagle Award)

Background/Justification: Between 2009 and 2014, fourteen local Council Scout Executives in various parts of the nation APPROVED this unofficial insignia to be worn by Gold Award holders (or who previously earned the Girl Scout First Class Award) who are currently registered as Venturers, Venturing leaders or Boy Scouters.

The BSA approved the wearing of the small Girl Scout Gold Award pin to be worn centered on the left pocket of the Venturing field uniform in 2009; with the new Venturing award placement starting in 2014, the Gold Award pin may be worn centered on the left pocket flap between the button and the top edge of the pocket flap.

 

 

[mrkstvns]

On 1/29/2020 at 9:59 AM, Protoclete said:

Wow, this is an old thread! The question came up in another context and found this looking for insight here. Since the thread was last updated, there have been some developments, at least according to this http://www.scoutinsignia.com/cnclknot.htm:

Ancient thread, but I appreciate your updated post....very interesting!  I wasn't even aware that councils would approve their own locally worn knots.

I think that with girls now allowed to participate in the Scouts BSA program, you might have more interest in these knots for the Gold award.  

How many councils have approved that gold knot?  Just a couple?  Lots?  

[ASMPeter]

My daughter has earned both her Gold Award and Eagle Rank (yay!), so I was wondering if the Gold Award gets recognized anywhere. I was surprised to read in the Guide to Awards and Insignia from 2022 that Female Venturers and Sea Scouts can wear their Gold Award pin on the Venturing uniform, but there is no mention of Scouts BSA nor of wearing it on the Sea Scout uniform. One could interpret this as an oversight that hasn’t been updated properly, or as something that has an intent and considers the Scouts BSA uniform differently.

[scoutldr]

For the sake of argument, does GSUSA have a special insignia or allow the wearing of the Eagle Scout award on the official GS uniform?  I don't view it as an oversight.  They are two separate organizations with their own insignia.  

[ASMPeter]

I take it you disagree with the current BSA uniform policy then? That’s fine, but it doesn’t change the policy. From my reading of the GSUSA policy it is clear that there are few exceptions to insignia, and the Eagle Rank pin is not one of them. The ambiguity is with the BSA policy, which says Sea Scouts can wear the Gold Award on a Venturing shirt, which they don’t have. Unless I’m mistaken, and Sea Scouts use a Venturing uniform as an alternative.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Greetings @ASMPeter!  And welcome to the forum!

Congratulations to your daughter on these impressive achievements!  And I know what it takes as a parent to guide them on their road to these recognitions, so good on you, too!

Congratulations also on your first post stirring up the old hornet's nest!  I love it.

You'll find here two kinds of folks:   the letter of the law, and the spirit of law.  The letter of the law folks will tell you, NO!, if it isn't written in the Guide to Awards and Insignia, then you are wrong to do it.

The spirit of the law folks, are more aligned with the thinking you have already displayed with that simple question:  If a Scout can wear her Gold Award pin on the Venturing uniform, then can she wear it on her Scouts, BSA uniform?

I agree with your premise that this is most likely an oversight in editing to update publications to accommodate changes in membership policies.

If you were to push this up the chain to National for adjudication, you'd most likely never get an answer, as this is not really a big issue for them.  They'll focus on other things.

If you read further in the G2AI, you'll see this:

Awards From Other Scouting Associations Scouters occasionally receive awards from Scouting associations of other nations, and it is important that they know how these awards should be worn. This does not include jamboree patches. Following are the regulations for wearing such awards: 1. They are always worn when visiting the country whose Scouting association presented the award or when attending a meeting or function attended by Scouters from that country. 2. Medals awarded by other associations are worn above the left breast pocket.

Based on the spirit of that excerpt also (because it applies to Scouters vs Scouts), IMO, she could wear the pin on her Scouts BSA uniform.  This is a "Medal awarded by other association"

However, she should not wear the faux knot from the 29 Jan 2020 post, as that is not a BSA supply division knot created to recognize that specific achievement.

Although program reciprocity would be nice, what the GSUSA allows is irrelevant to your question.

To expand the discussion, the BSA ought to allow the wearing of Congressional Award and Duke of Edinburgh award also.

Thanks for asking the question and being willing to endure the down arrows you'll get.

Happy Scouting!

Edited April 9, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Based on the spirit of that excerpt also (because it applies to Scouters vs Scouts), IMO, she could wear the pin on her Scouts BSA uniform.  This is a "Medal awarded by other association"

This is a great find and seems clearly within the “rules”. 

[ASMPeter]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:53 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

…

If you were to push this up the chain to National for adjudication, you'd most likely never get an answer, as this is not really a big issue for them.  They'll focus on other things.

…

Thanks for asking the question and being willing to endure the down arrows you'll get.

Happy Scouting!

Thank you for the kind and friendly response!
 

My experience with the professional scouters so far has been that they are great people who are taking on a large task and doing their best to deliver a great program with very stretched resources. So I agree that getting every detail of the books and codes consistent with the big changes to Scouting after incorporating girls into the program is not always the top priority. In that sense, I certainly tend towards being a spirit of the law guy.

[Mrjeff]

I love to discuss things with the likes of backpacker, I always gain wisdom and insight to so many things.  Y'all can argue and say " you are wrong" but here's a little tidbit that may shed some light on this.  Law Enforcement Explorer's, and there is such a thing even if they're they are in Exploring,  have a recognition device for Eagle Scouts and several years ago Exploring authorized that same device for the Girl Scout Gold Award. As far as BSA goes it really doesn't matter because uniforms are only optional and suggested so I guess the patches that one puts on their shirt doesn't really matter either.

[skeptic]

Frankly, though I am aware some would scream and stomp feet and so on, I doubt many Scouters living the basic precepts of the Oath and Law would care if a young woman wore that pin on her Scouts USA uniform.  I surely would have no issue and think that now, if a GS were to earn Eagle or similar Scout BSA award that she might also wear a pin or knot related to it on her GS uniform.  But, that wouold likely raise even more clamor.  Respect and fair representation of achievement is always worth noting with people, and especially youth.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

My concern about wearing GSUSA insignia on BSA uniforms, even if allowed, is the lawsuit that took place recently. Remember GSUSA sued Boy Scouts for copyright infringement, ad nauseum when we allowed girls in. While the lawsuit was dropped, My understanding is that GSUSA units can still not do joint activite with BSA, i.e. Memorial Day Service Projects.

Regarding Sea Scouts, their uniforms are the most minimalistic of the BSA's uniforms. It has only been within the past 5 years that they are allowed to wear OA and Jambo insignia.

[scoutldr]

That's probably a good enough reason for BSA to remain silent on the issue.  One could argue that what one wears falls under the First Amendment, but not when it is part of an official BSA uniform.