Paper Eagles

[packsaddle]

Adrianvs, Wow! And if you think OGE is a wee bit touchy, wait till you meet Bob White (and the gom jabar).

I think part of the difference you observe (and this is just my experience) is that the parent/leader knows their son more intimately than any of the others. In this respect I think you may be correct, the parent side may intrude on the leader side and the son may have an advantage. This is almost unavoidable. But ideally, if any boy asks for help, a good leader will do everything they can to assist, I know I do. Here's a smiley face to cheer up everyone.

Y'all have a nice day now, you hear?

[Twocubdad]

Adrian, you may have hit a sensitive nerve with that one. But for every Scouter-parent who gives their son an unfair advantage, you'll find 10 who are harder on their own son than they are the other Scouts and 100 who struggle with trying to be fair to everyone. My older son is a real dog-on-a-bone when it comes to advancement. He's usually the first one in his den to reach his rank advancement every years. I'm sure many folks assume it's because I'm helping and/or pushing, but that's their problem. When we moved to Webelos last year, I told him he had to have all his requirements signed off by the ADL, not me. I mainly did this because he is rather shy and I wanted him to interact with another adult. As a general rule, the other leader cuts him much more slack than I do.

 

You are closer to the truth with you're last post. I look at it this way: why is the coach's son usually the best ball player on the team. Because ball is one of the main interests in their family. When the kid is looking for something to do on a weekend, going out and playing ball is the first thing they do. No one complains that the kid has an unfair advantage. They usually talk about what a natural athlete he is.

 

At my house, when my sons tell me they are bored my first suggestion is the pick up your Scout handbook and work on it. They also generally have 100% attendance at all the meetings and activities. If I'm there, they're there.

 

But isn't it funny that no one ever talks about a fast-advancing Scout being a "natural" and that you never hear any complaints about ball team being a "homerun mill."

[Adrianvs]

hahahaha, packsaddle, I HAVE met Bob White. But I suppose that's another issue..

 

I found it interesting that after a series of posts describing incompetent eagles, Machiavellian parents, negligent parents, and even other posts about scouter parents..

 

("It's both but the adult leadership allowed it to happen but that's probably because the adult leadership is usually the parents. I don't know if all parent really want "what's best for their kids." They often claim and even think that want what's best for their kids but often what they want is what will make them look good...How many of these parents are really doing it for the kids? How much of it is for their own egos?")

 

..after all this, it was my statement..

 

"As I said, it is unlikely that parent scouters will ever be as concerned or involved with other's advancement, but they should try to narrow the gap, especially with those youth who do not have scouter parents."

 

..that provoked a personally defensive response? I consider the above statements much more potentially inflammatory to any scouter parent. (I also consider them valid statements and questions.) I just find it interesting that one statement was taken as presumptuous because it was a 'call to arms' for parent-scouters instead of a blatant attack on scouts and/or parents. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." I think I did strike a nerve, Twocub, and it was unintentional. In fact, it took me a long time to figure out that OGE had taken the "Parent-Child Attention Theory" personally. Perhaps if more nerves were struck, scouters would be more likely to engage in introspection and realize that perhaps some of the problems we encounter aren't due to everyone outside the club. If my statements are false, then they should be struck down with the truth. But when more extreme statements of the same thing are ignored, I can only wonder what the criteria for presumption are.

 

packsaddle, your statment of "I have never seen a parent who is not a parent first, regardless." is all I have been trying to say, albeit less directly. Thanks for your understanding.. and your smiley.

 

Twocubdad, I think your 1-10-100 ratio is pretty good. And I think you are right in describing how advancement differences can come about simply from the atmosphere of a scouting home (like a sporting home or a religious home or a farming home, etc).

 

Everyone should just remember that not every kid has a scouting home. That was never a critique of parent-scouters. It was and is a mission for scouters.

[dan]

Okay I give up what is gom jabar?

[dsteele]

Dan:

 

Do yourself a huge favor and read Dune by Frank Herbert. It is, IMHO, second only to The Fellowship of the Ring as a signularly great work of fiction.

 

It's complicated to explain, but there's a dominant religion that differentiates between mankind and beastdom by choices and behavior. The test in which the gom jabbar is involved has a human shoving his hand into a mystic box while the test administrator holds a needle (the gom jabbar) that contains something that is deadly poison to animals and safe for man. The box puts incredible pain on the hand inside, but if the hand is withdrawn, the needle is inserted.

 

The theory is that an animal chew off his limb before getting caught in a trap, but a human will wait and win against those who trap him.

 

Great book. But stop after the first one. I didn't care for the next two -- Dune Messiah or Children of Dune. Several more have been written by the late Frank Herbert's son, but none are as good as the first.

 

Don't cheat by trying to rent any of the movie versions, either. None of them are any good compared to the book.

 

DS

[dan]

Fellowship of the Ring, I found it just okay. But I loved the first book, The Hobbit there and back again.

My favorite authour is Tom Clancy, still think I would enjoy Dune?

 

[packsaddle]

Dan, You should at least read the first couple of chapters to learn what the gom jabar is. I like Tom Clancy too so it might grow on you. But when you read it you'll also recognize my intended association for Bob White. It's meant in good fun but you never know how a person will react.

Edited part: I better put in another smiley face, I wouldn't want to meet the gom jabar.

 

And I agree with Dsteele regarding the sequels (5 sequels so far). The last ones are just a chore for me. But Dune is a great read. It won awards but I don't think of it as science fiction as much as fantasy. I'm thinking Merlyn could be a member of the spacing guild. Can't place the Baron just yet. I would like to be thought of as Duncan Idaho or Dr. Kynes (hey you know I can dream too, I like spice and my eyes are blue).

 

But Frank Herbert was a serious person. He did quite a bit of work crafting the original. See: http://www.dunenovels.com/news/genesis.html

 

As John Ciardi would say, good words to you.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[dsteele]

Dan -- If you like Clancy, you'll like Dune. Different Genre, but Clancy follows the author's style well.

 

Packsaddle -- so who do I most closely resemble from Dune? Leto Atreides perhaps? Bene Jesserit (sp?) Certainly not Paul Atredies?

 

Just curious.

 

Hopefully, I'm not your Baron.

 

DS

[packsaddle]

Uh oh! I might have started something here...

I can't place you, seriously, I guess I haven't formed an image my mind's eye yet. (Same goes for most of the other forum members so don't ask) Maybe a different book would work better. Suggestions?

 

P.S. Zorn Packte, definitely a shape shifter.

The Baron - I'm currently thinking he's probably not in Scouting (I hope)

[yarrow]

Anyone think there is a problem with a 14-17 year old Eagle????????????????????

 

Enough said, I think.

 

I was turned off by two 13 year old eagles arguing about who got each rank, badge, etc. youngest.........what is the point?

[Rooster7]

I was turned off by two 13 year old eagles arguing about who got each rank, badge, etc. youngest.........what is the point?

 

Boys, whether they are 7 or 17, tend to be competitive. Why should it surprise you that two boys would argure over who got there first? This fact does not nullify their accomplishment. Nor does it say anything about their capabilities or character. It does indicate that the two boys have a competitive nature. I say - so what, they're just behaving like most boys do.

[OldGreyEagle]

See, I would have settled the controversey by asking the two arguing "Eagles" to name all their Positions of Responsibilities and what they did in those postiitons to improve their troops and let they themselves determine who did "better".

 

The alternative of course would be to thow a bucket of water on them and tell them to act like Eagles

[packsaddle]

Or another alternative would be a song and a group hug. "How much is that doggie in the window? Arf, arf." Man if that's not intimidating I don't know what is. And I hope everyone keeps that tune in their heads for the rest of the day.

[Bob White]

"Anyone think there is a problem with a 14-17 year old Eagle????????????????????"

 

Yes, I do. If a scout has not met the requirements and does not live by the Oath and Law, I would have a problem with it no matter what their age. On the other hand, If a scout has met the requirements annd lives by the Oath and Law the I have no problem with their Eagle Award no matter what their age.

 

To determine that the Eagle is deserved simply because of their age group is as shallow and superficial as saying that it isn't deserved simply because of age.

 

The only measure that counts is did they meet the requirements of the BSA.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[yarrow]

The point being, I think, if you look through posts for the last 10 years you will see endless discussions on Paper/baby eaglettes and ancient deathbed Eagles. None on 14-17 year old Eagles. Have the paper eagles done the requirements? I suppose so....must be so.... the papers say so.......but very few believe it. I think that is what fuels all the discussion.