Paper Eagles

[Eagledad]

I agree with everything you said FOG. A troop is only as boy run as the adults allow it to be. Adults basically work with scouts from three directions; fear, self-serving or serving. Some adults grow to serve through training and guidence from other experienced leaders. Others have one objective in mind and stick to their plan.

 

I don't have much trouble with 13-year-old Eagles if they stay with the program because with or without the Eagle, they will still grow up and learn. Program has a lot to do with it. 90% of our Eagles are 16 or older. I think 30% of them get their Eagle within a couple months of their 18th birthday. They say they are very busy doing that scouting stuff.

 

This is a great program for building men of integrity, if only we can teach that adults that better.

 

Scouting Cheers.

 

Barry

 

[KoreaScouter]

I agree that it's the exceptional 13, or even 14 year old Scout who's truly Eagle material. Most I've seen that young, however, are not exceptional in my mind -- the maturity and leadership just isn't there. But, with subjective requirements, it's subject to interpretation by volunteer leaders who in many cases aren't sufficiently trained or experienced, and whose interpretation can be anywhere on a very wide continuum.

 

Ditto for the "deathbed Eagles" (hadn't heard that term before). I see a fairly universal "we gotta help this Scout" mindset among the adults, who seem to forget that the Scout is up against the clock becuase of choices/decisions he made. The example of the lumber delivery is perfect. Nobody forced that Scout to begin his project three days before his birthday...he decided that himself. I saw a perfect example of that in a former Troop. Huge parental pressure with the 18th birthday around the corner, and the Troop leadership caved on a marginal project and questionable participation/leadership.

 

My own son just turned 13 and has completed all requirements for Life except Scout Spirit, SM Conference, and BOR -- very active, went to everything, buddied up on MBs, and so on. He could have done it all for Life by now, but since we were moving and he was still 12 I asked that we wait until his new troop leadership gets a chance to know him, he gets settled in, he gets a little older, and can better handle the pressure and expectations of a Life-to-Eagle situation. Great kid, love him to pieces, but he's got plenty of time, and needs to get more leadership experience and maturity.

 

This should be a marathon, not a sprint.

 

KS

[ASM514]

What an outstanding conversation. All of your opinions are well thought out. Some differ but all true to the spirit. I never made Eagle, maybe because of the reasons posted here. I was in an active troop in Chicago, but I had no parent involvement. My father traveled ALL the time in his job, and my mother was working to help my father put my sister through college. My father died when I was 14. I was alone in scouting but never minded. I had the time of my life, and to this date, I do not remember when I have had more fun. My high rank was Star. At the age of 18, I had to leave scouting. I was very sad. But I think I got the true meaning of scouting. Now I have 3 sons, 2 of them are older and in the military. ALL were scouts. The 2 in the military never made Eagle either, and I never pushed them to. They are both fine men. My youngest son is bent on making Eagle and I am very proud of him, as I am of my other sons. My yougest made Life when he turned 14. He asked me what he had to do next to make Eagle and that he wanted to plan his project right away. Since he entered scouting as a Tiger Cub and has been a burner ever since. I told him to relax and put off the Eagle project for at least a year and enjoy scouting for a while instead of making it a DUTY. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know. but I know he will make Eagle on his own abilities and not from me pushing him to make it for my glory. He is a good boy and to this point, lives his life in the scouting methods. What more could I ask for?

 

ASM514(This message has been edited by ASM514)

[KoreaScouter]

And, another perspective. While I certainly don't begrudge the Scout who earns his Eagle right before his 18th birthday, and I heartily congratulate him, I still consider it somewhat a shame that the lad didn't get to enjoy his exalted status as a youth for a while in a Troop; serving on camp staff as an Eagle, performing as a JASM as an Eagle, etc., etc.

 

KS

[Mike F]

I'd much rather see an active scout come sliding in under the wire of his 18th birthday instead of a young Eagle who punches the ticket and drops out soon after. In my opinion, the boy who invests the bulk of his teen years (out to 17 or 18) as an active scout gets much more out of the program as a whole, even if he never reaches Eagle.

 

On a related note, I had the opportunity to speak at an Eagle CoH last week. Started out my talk by noting that the Aims of scouting had to do with character, citizenship, and fitness. Note that reaching Eagle is not one of them. In fact, a boy can spend his entire career as a scout without attaining the Eagle rank and still get 100% of the benefits that scouting has to offer.

Moving on from that intro, I talked about the joy and pride we all share when a boy puts it all together and makes it, etc., etc.

I've done a number of Eagle CoH, but never used this introduction before. It came to me while driving over that evening.

After the CoH, the SM came up to me and told me I had hit a home run. There was a family there whose son had missed the wire about a year before. There were some hard feelings, but the family told SM that they finally understood and thanked him for everything he had done for their son through the years. Wow - HE does work in mysterious ways!

[saltheart]

Absolutely right on target. Not every young man in Scouting 'needs' to earn the Eagle. For those who do? Highest kudos and honors!! For those who don't but have spent their Scouting careers as active and enthusiastic Scouts? Highest kudos and honors, too!!! They've gotten something out of Scouting that they probably wouldn't have found in life otherwise.

 

The single most favorite Scout I had the pleasure to work with in all my years in the organization was a young man who never made First Class. He remained a Second Class Scout until the day he graduated out of the troop...and then went on to MIT. (Go figure...) His attitude toward participating in Scouting, learning, and sharing what he knew was most enviable. His single (I hate to use the word) fault(?) was that he had absolutely no interest in advancement or patches or the regalia that went with the territory. His uniform was always impecable. But the Second Class patch was as far down the formal advancement trail as he would go. Never became as OA member. But he knew more about camping and working outdoors and teaching others to have the same fun and interest than many will ever forget. He simply refused to formally advance. In some ways, he was a problem in that other Scouts sometimes seemed to idolize his way of life. But even he was the first to discourage them from following his lead in that regard. Truly mystifying.

 

Anyway, he was a special young man who thirsted for the learning and the participation and camaradarie, but not the trappings and formality and recognition of advancement. Much of that I still wonder about. But he took from and gave to the troop all that he could. Andsince graduating from college, I understand that the attitude he had in Scouting has taken him to great places. Learning and doing...but without the advancement recognition.

 

No, not every boy needs to be an Eagle...if their mind is set to learn, enjoy, teach, participate, and as some do...lead.

[Eagledad]

>>No, not every boy needs to be an Eagle...if their mind is set to learn, enjoy, teach, participate, and as some do...lead.

[mk9750]

I'd like to hear the opinion of the Scouts on this forum about this. How do you guys look at young Eagle Scouts? Do you think 13 is a resonable age? I know Hops Scout will have some insight, and maybe so will Ryon and our new freind SPLCOBRA. hopefully there are others.

 

Did you have a chance to be Eagle that quickly if you had wanted to?

 

Did anyone in your Troop try?

 

What were the results? did these guys get value from Scouting?

 

Are they still in Scouts?

 

Do they add to your Troop's program, not mean much one way or the other, or do they hurt it?

 

If you were the wizard who could set the rules, what age would be the perfect age to make Eagle?

 

Eagledad,

 

What would it take for you to come to our Troop to teach your phlosophy? Again, you have blown me away with your wisdom. I know I sound ridiculous, but I truly believe that your attitude is the most likely way to positively influence Scouts. I missed when you had cut back your contributions. I'm glad your back.

 

Mark

[Twocubdad]

Great story, Barry. But turn it around. What would have been wrong if this kid was one to rip through the Eagle requirements? What I get from your story is that different Scouts respond to different parts of the program and methods. That's one of the great strengths of Scouting that it's not one method for all boys. So why do some of us stigmatize boys (or even whole units) who key in on advancement?

 

I was -- and still am -- like that. Tell me to find something to do and I'll likely go find a shade tree. But give me a list of things to do -- or requirements to complete -- and I'm like a dog on a bone (that's not an unhandy trait for a building contractor). My older son is the same way. He really feeds off the acheivement part of Scouting. Christmas two years ago his cousin was bragging about having earned all 20 Webeblos activity pins. The whole ride home, my son was bouncing of the top of the car about activity pins -- and he was still a Bear! Fast foward 18 months. He's now getting ready to start his Webelos II year and already has 15 of the pins. I have no doubt he'll make his goal of all 20 by crossover time.

 

On the other hand, my other son is just the opposite. He loves Cub activites and would go to den meeting five nights a week, but is indifferent about advancements -- even to the point that he has completed some belt loops but never bothers to put in for them with his den leader. Isn't it grand that both boys -- and others who are motivated by yet other things -- can all thrive within the Scouting program?

 

I have no doubt that there are a fair number of paper Eagles and "deathbed" Eagles (love that phrase) out there. Take 40,000 of anything and you'll find a few clinkers. But I'm concerned that some folks have a Rockwell-esque mental image of what an Eagle Scout is "supposed" to look or be like. We may not be adding requirements in the usual sense of "here's something extra to do," but are we adding a requirement that a boy needs to meet our image of an Eagle Scout? My copy of the Scout Handbook shows Troop Scribe, Historian and Bugler as acceptable positions of leadership -- actually the requirment says positions of responsibility, not leadership. While a bookish 13-year-old toiling away at the troop scrap book may not meet our expectation of a leader the same way a strapping, 17-year-old SPL stepping out in front of a troop on a high adventure outing does, both meet the requirement. And I may add both can be fine Eagle Scouts.

 

 

(Note to Barry -- upon further review, this may sound like I'm ragging on you and the Scout in your post. I'm not. I'm just using you post as a starting point for my thought.)

[dsteele]

Excellent posts. This topic comes back to the mission of the BSA -- to instill values in young people . . . the values we seek to instill are those found in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

No rank is mentioned as a benchmark -- only the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Advancement, uniform, adult associations, youth leadership, etc. are the methods by which we work toward achieving the mission.

 

DS

[Mike F]

Some (rare) kids will naturally attack that list of requirements like a stack of pancakes after a survival weekend. We might not be able to slow them, nor do we necessarily want to, but we need to heap equal praise and encouragement on the ones who are enjoying the scenery along the way.

 

It's OK to spend a week at camp and only come home with one (or no) merit badge. Let's hear about the hikes he took, the coyote tracks he found, the wood duck nest in the hollow tree, and the perfect target score.

 

Similarly, it's OK to not make Eagle. He shouldn't feel like a failure if he doesn't earn it by 13 or 14 or 18. Too much emphasis on advancement gets in the way of the fun (not to mention the other 7 Methods besides Advancement).

 

We DO send messages like this in so many subtle ways. Think about your post-Summer Camp CoH coming up. Aren't there usually some special comments made when a boy comes home with 5 or 6 MBs in the bag? If that's all we make special comment on, then the message is clear and it is heard. I dont have a clear answer these are new ideas to me. Maybe take note that Scout #2 worked on his tracking skills in an effort to locate the coyotes den. Or Scout #3 who was considered staff at the rifle range in his quest for the perfect score.

 

Do we make a big deal about it when young SuperScout becomes our Troop's or Council's youngest Eagle ever? Should we? Does this send the message that it's more important to get it very young rather than just in time? Perhaps we should just celebrate with the exceptional young man and keep the record books and comparisons out of the picture.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Note to Barry -- upon further review, this may sound like I'm ragging on you and the Scout in your post. I'm not. I'm just using you post as a starting point for my thought.)>What would have been wrong if this kid was one to rip through the Eagle requirements?

[slontwovvy]

Agreed--Eagle isn't the only end to Scouting. Some of the finest Scouts I've ever known are members of the "Life for Life" Club.

[yarrow]

While I have met a number of 13/14 year old boys that hold the rank of Eagle, I have yet to meet a 13/14 Eagle. By the time they reach maturity they all look about the same though. Who can tell in a group of 25 year olds which have the much sought after patch for Unbelievably Young Eagles the "UYE"

 

My boy advanced quickly while in middle school. He was busy with many other activities too, but focused on advancement. Life at 12. Didn't much look or act like some Lifes but he has been working on Merit badges, Leadership, responsibility and having just plain fun ever since. I have suggested that he look for a project that he can really be proud of, to complete the summer of his 15, or 16th year. Want to avoid the deathbed approach. Have sat on too many boards for those. Kinda painful really.

 

The point being that as he has entered high school the activities available, particularly band, don't leave much time. He would be hard pressed to complete the rest of the badges, etc. He continues to hold PORs and be involved but it is a real nice place to be.....just thinking about a cool project. It's all that's left. A 13/14 year olds project looks it or looks like mom did it. Yep, it's all they are capable of, but how much more can be accomplished by the aveage 16-17 year old. Note I said aveage. There are always exceptions.....The "AMAZING" 13 year old, the slug 17 year old.

 

Could my kid get an Eagle at this point, yeah, but then he would be "one of those" that we all wonder about. I'd rather have him wait.

 

 

p.s.Interesting to note that in Girl Scouts you can't even start the pre reqs for Gold until you are in High School. Quite difficult too. I have two Gold award recipients and am fully aware of the requirements and the difficulty of both scouting programs.

[KoreaScouter]

Several posts late in this thread ask if we're overly focusing on earning Eagle as the primary purpose of the movement. When I hold conferencs with Scouts and ask them their goals in Scouting, most tell me it's to earn their Eagle (I suspect some say that simply because it's what they think I expect to hear). I counter that by suggesting that Eagle should be an intermediate goal, then discuss the palms, OA Service Corps, Philmont Staff, and adult leadership opportunities.

 

I think the risk we take when we declare earning Eagle as the culmination of one's Scouting experience is that after one earns it, there's nowhere else to go from the summit except down -- many quit.

 

I'm not trying to diminish the personal accomplishment of earning Eagle, and we should rightly make a fuss over a lad when he earns it. But, rather than setting him up for a letdown afterward, how about portraying this as a lifelong thing, beginning with the new Scout conference?

 

KS