Paper Eagles

[captainron14]

I was roasted for bringing up this topic before, but here goes anyway.

How many of you out there believe that 13 or 14 is THE age to be to get your Eagle?

I know there are exceptional kids out there who can do it ALL BY THEMSELVES. BUT, I see more kids out there who are under the gun by parents who "want to live their dreams through their kids".

The push is to get them to Eagle as early as possible, ANYWAY possible. Starting Boy Scouts at 10? (after earning arrow of light) Most kids at 13 do not know what being an Eagle is all about. The understanding of the responsibilities, for most is not there. The maturity is not there. There seems to be a priority of advancement over enjoyment. Why can't the boys be allowed to enjoy being a scout? I know they will have other "interests" as they grow up (cars' girls, etc.) but they should not be "Force Fed" advancement. Let them have fond memories of Scouts, not ones of "Sweat Shop" MBs and Rank. Or ones of Mom or Dad signing MBs off or arranging it otherwise.

I was told that "an Eagle, a "Paper Eagle", a "Deathbead Eagle" is an Eagle just the same", as long as it was earned "Legit". Which brings me to another point. With the increasing amount of things competing for kids attention these days, how "Legit" are some of these awards. (School, Sports, Hobbies, Music lessons, Etc.) I have seen MB "Mills" as well as Eagle "Mills"

where Eagle required MBs are earned in a couple of hours and Eagle Mills using a all ready planed "Church Ladies Aux. Service Night" as an Eagle Project (one of many examples).

How about the 17 year old almost 18 who last attended ANY Scouting program when he was 14 and a Star Scout, SUDDENLY, POOF has his Eagle, just days before turning 18 (AKA Deathbead Eagle).

And Don't even think of questioning if the 13 year old or 17 year old awards are "Legit". You don't want to "Disturb the Peace" of the CO.

Someone commented to me "When you are 45 you won't remember or care how you got your Eagle".

It would seem that for some, the Ends justify the Means.

Now I know this is not the majority of Eagles. Most Eagles are earned with honor and truthfullness. But there are those people (Scouts, Parents, and Leaders) who seen to have forgotten the Scout Law.

Excuse me for ranting and raving about this, but I along with many others earned the rank of Eagle. And I hate it when people for very selfish motives cheepen the award.

 

Is there anything that can be done to prevent these problems? Toughen requirements?

Better oversight by National?

 

I am not condemimg any Sponsoring group, especialy Churches, so PLEASE do not turn this topic into a religious argument.

Thank you.

 

Also,I'm sorry if I was too harsh or if I offended anyone.

 

Now I will stand up and open my shirt and let the "arrows fly".

 

[troopmom]

Okay here goes, open your shirt. Just kidding actually I'm somewhere in the middle. My oldest son could have been an Eagle by 13 but he couldn't do what he wanted and lost his drive. He has found a similar project now and wants it done yesterday. He is now 15, 16 in Jan. He has always been a model Scout but didn't know how to handle rejection. There is your not mature. I also have a 13, 14 in Oct. who found a project at the same place, my younger sons' school. He will finish it because they need it done and he is committed to do it now. He is a typical loses interest child but I don't think that will change with age as I can be the same way. I will not do it for him however I will nag him because the School is dependant on him now. Both of these children had a goal to make it to Eagle before 13 but they couldn't do it and I didn't do it for them.

On the other side, have a parent who is a perfectionist and brags all the time how his son will be Eagle by 13. Junior isn'teven life rank yet but dad knows he'll make it? He bragged about it to the Camp director at summercamp. The Director was an old salt though who informed him that 13 is too young, not mature enough, but he supports the program etc.. Now the dad says 13 is too young, not mature enough. I kinda backed up what director said with they are too young to call the contacts and get scouts to listen(leadership) etc. I think he'll back off of his son now but he was definately going down the road of "If he can't do it I'll do it for him so I have an Eagle at thirteen."

Please note that 2 of my 3 sons that are in the Troop who crossed over after one year of WEBELOS as soon as they were 10 1/2 (AOL requirement) because it was easier for me and them. They were already going to all of the Scout activities including Summercamp so they could begin earning awards for stuff they were doing. Sometimes cubs are boring as they are resticted in their activities so be careful when assuming that Scouts that crossover at 10 1/2 careful do so because of pushy parents.

I don't know if I was helpful or not. I do sit on the Eagle board and I can tell you that we are careful in approving projects. We look at how knowledable the scout seems on the project. If he is clueless then chances are someone is doing it for him. Seems once you approve his project even if you don't pass him, he can appeal and get Eagle. Gotta go computer is freezing up.

[dsteele]

This topic always interests me because, as is well known, I earned Eagle at the age of 13. Perhaps I was exceptional, perhaps not.

 

I like troopmom's point. The time to say yeah or nay to an Eagle Candidate is at the Board of Review. Once earned, the rank can not be stripped away.

 

However, let us remember that the mark of the Eagle Scouts is a mark that is worn for the rest of his life. If he didn't truly learn the lessons of the Scout Oath and Law, his behavior throughout his life will be held up to the standard the pubilc holds for Eagle Scouts. It will, fortunately or unfortunately, reflect on all of us if he does not live up to it.

 

In another vein on a similar topic, I don't think age necessarily relates to maturity.

 

While I was on vacation last month, an Eagle candidate called the Scout office. In our small council in the summer time, the DE's are all off running our two camps. Theres only myself and the Scout Executive. The Scout Executive was at our Scout camp and I was, as I said, on vacation.

 

This Eagle candidate's problem was that he had secured a donation of lumber for his Eagle project that was due to begin 3 days prior to his 18th birthday. The lumber didn't arrive on the appointed day, and he was promised it would arrive the next day. It didn't.

 

So he wanted to know, from our office, if it was possible to get and extention on the deadline. (editorial -- he waits until 3 days prior to 18 to start the physical part of his project?) In any case, the secretary who took the call desperately wanted to help this young man. She called National and found out that extentions are possible if the reason the badge couldn't be completed was completely out of the Scout's control.

 

She had the council advancement chairman and the Scout write a letter to National asking for the extention. The Scout was told to proceed with his project by the council advancement chairman.

 

A week later, I came back from vacation. The Scout Executive hands me a file on the kid and says that national has sent him (the SE) a letter asking for more details. They want to know how old the kid is, etc.

 

I call the Scout's house. His mother answers and tells me that her son is at another council's camp and gives me the number.

 

I call the other council's camp and leave a message for the Scout to call me the next day between 10:00 and 11:00 AM -- that was the window of time between appointments that I would be available. I waited by the phone. I had secretaries instructed to call my cell phone if the Scout called while I was out. The Scout never called.

He called the next day, while I was at camp and unavailable. This made me start to wonder whether he's truly Eagle quality or not. The secretary who took the call told him that there's not much he could do until he returned home from summer camp and that he should call me Monday.

 

Monday came and went. He didn't call.

Same with Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday . . .

 

I called him Friday. His mother told me he's at work and won't be home until 5:30. I gave her my home phone number and asked that she have her son call me at home Saturday evening after he got home from work. I told her that it was about her son's request for an extention and that there's still hope for her son to become an Eagle Scout.

 

Last night (Saturday evening) he didn't call. I'm sorry if it sounds cold, but I'm not going to call him and/or try to hunt him down. If he can't muster the drive to call me (at home on a weekend, which I didn't have to ask him to do)I don't see it as my job to call him again.

 

Self-doubt isn't my strong suit. Do you think I need to go further to help this Scout attain a rank that is supposed to be self-driven? My current mind set is that if he doesn't care, why should I?

 

DS

[SagerScout]

If and when he calls, I would sum up my recommendations to you in two words: "Convince me."

 

 

[hops_scout]

I would tell him if he calls again that it is too late to get an extension. He apparently isnt striving too hard to get it done. He will probably keep coming back asking for more time.

[Fat Old Guy]

"When you are 45 you won't remember or care how you got your Eagle".

 

Untrue.

 

There are many problems with the system, a major one being the parents. Eagle has become the goal of Scouting to many parents. That's why we hear things like, "my son won't get his Driver's License until he makes Eagle."

 

The kid didn't make Eagle before something pulled him away from Scouts. So what? Is it the end of the Earth? If becomming an Eagle is important to the kid, he'll make time for it just like he finds time for his girlfriend and soccer.

 

Our committee recently listened to two Eagle project presentations. One was from a Scout who has been fast tracked by his mother since day one. The project had the stamp of the mother on every aspect of it. The other was from a Scout who is involved in other stuff than Scouts and vanishes for months at a time to do school plays. His project write-up looked like it had been written by a 14 year old BUT it showed that he was involved in the idea. When questioned about his project idea, he spoke passionately about it and his reasons for wanting to do it. Big difference there.

 

Why can't parents just let their kids enjoy the program and only help the kid when he really needs it, like checking to make sure that they packed clean underwear for camp.

[le Voyageur]

Speaking from personal experiences 12 and 13 year old Eagles, and I'm going to be very blunt, is that these Eagles are worthless as leaders. They lack maturity, make poor decisions and can't even be used as CIT's at any summer camp. Not only have I had to "babyset" a few of these wunderkids, I've spent days teaching them basic outdoor skills that should of been mastered at the lower ranks (awhile back I watched a young Eagle spend nearly two hours trying to light a wet log with matches for a cooking fire before giving up...however,on the plus side to his credit, I did get him to the point where he could start a fire with flint and steel).

However, until National changes the rules to where the earilest a scout can make Eagle is at 15 or 16, the only thing I can do is grit my teeth...eventually, and I hope that I'm wrong here, but sooner or later being an Eagle won't have the same weight or meaning that it had in years past since quickie advancements is erroding overall quality...

[saltheart]

In all the years I sat as SM of the troop, I never told a Scout he was too young to make the jump to Eagle. Never had to. Never was I presented with the challenge. The youngest in our troop to begin that trail from Life was 15.

 

In all the years I sat as District and then Council Advancement Chairman, I was only presented with a 13 year old candidate 3 times. In every case, the boy was allowed to follow the trail and seek his goal. No matter what my own personal opinion was, for that opinion did not matter. The written rules are the guide, and can not be changed by me or any volunteer, nor any paid professional for that matter.

 

In the back of my mind, there resided, and still resides, an opinion formed over years of working with boys, that it would be a remarkable 13 year old, or even 14 year old, who could impress me with his leadership skills and qualities. But I would watch, knowing that remarkable things do happen from time to time. I felt then, as I feel now, that the time necessary to become that boy to whom the instinct to lead, and the lessons learned in Scouting along the way all meld together in one young man who can take the reigns and lead, show the way, and gain the respect of his fellow Scouts, on his own, by his own efforts and energies, without someone dragging him by the hand or placing undue pressure on him to succeed to make Mom & Dad, or someone else happy, by earning the Eagle, does not happen by the 13th or 14th birthday...for most. The exceptions do happen. But they are few. And that should not be a surprise or a disappointment.

 

By the time a boy passes his 16th birthday, or somewhere in that neighborhood, I would expect to see the signs, or the beginning of the signs, that the light is dawning, and wheels are turning, the desire is growing, and the understanding that working on his own to make things happen is what he will have to do to succeed. But that's my personal experience and opinion. Others make and have their own. That does not make mine wrong. Nor does it make theirs right.

 

With regard to the comment that the time to say yea or nay being at the BOR, I'd temper that by saying that if the troop leadership and the SM have done their job correctly and well, then the time to say yea or nay is long before the boy reaches the BOR. Sending a questionable candidate to the BOR and subjecting both the boy and BOR members to that unwarranted stress and potential for grand disappointment is doing nobody any favors. The SM and the troop adult leadership should be absolutely positive and able to stand on firm ground behind the candidate to say that the candidate is 100% deserving of the Eagle. If they can not stand thus, they have no business sending the candidate forward to questionable circumstances and potential doom, and they should never have signed anything nor sent it on to the Council. That being the case, although the candidate will not know it, the situation should be one wherein the candidate will glide easily through the BOR without any problem, and be awarded with approval of his goal at the end of the meeting. If the process is otherwise, then there are SM's and adult troop leaders out there who are not doing their job well, or at all, shirking their responsibility, and placing unsupecting candidates at the mercy of a BOR whose members have not watched him and worked with him all his years on the trail. And yes, I suppose this does mean that I'm saying that the BOR is somewhat of a last minute watchdog whose opinions will and should bear more on the SM and the troop than the candidate. For, like I said, if the SM and the troop adult leaders are doing what they're supposed to do, THEY will make the most important decision in a candidates life on the trail to Eagle, by sending him on confidently and willing to place their reputations on the line, or, by shirking that responsibility, they'll send a poorly prepared young boy to a fate that may have far more negative reaching consequences than they can ever guess. The BOR does not make the Eagle...never has...never will...IF THE ADULTTROOP LEADERS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO AND DOING IT WELL. It is the troop leadership that knows the boy well enough to know that he is, or is not qualified for and deserving of the Eagle.

 

And that's the way it should be.

 

Just my two cents, and just what I used to instill in all those new adult leaders perticipating in training when I was on staff.

[Eagle74]

""When you are 45 you won't remember or care how you got your Eagle.""

 

Can't speak for others, but I do remember and I do care. It is a personal sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that I feel confident in saying that I thoroughly learned and mastered all of the skills on the Trail to Eagle. And once there and on the Eagle Trail, I began to give back what I had learned and mastered so that others could do the same. I instill this same outlook on my two Scouting sons - one who reached Eagle and is now an ASM; one who is Life and within a couple required merit badges and project away from Eagle. They know that I would not accept mediocrity from them for the sake of advancement. It is a lesson that is lost on many in the rush to Eagle.

 

""I've spent days teaching them basic outdoor skills that should of been mastered at the lower ranks""

 

Key word being "mastered". Many will disagree with mastery of the skill, because the requirement doesn't say master the bowline, for instance; it says tie the bowline. (Can't add to the requirements - if the Scout can tie it, he passes the requirement, even if he can never tie it again. And once he's passed the requirement, you can't come back when he's a Life Scout and ask him to tie a bowline). Can't tell you how many Eagle Scouts I've run into that can't tie a bowline because they never mastered knot-tying skills; they simply learned it once so that they could pass an advancement requirement. My opinion is that it should be fair game to ask that a Scout be able to demonstrate or show continued use/ability of any/all of the skills that were required on the road to attaining his present rank - are these required skills not important enough to be of lasting value? The rush to Eagle doesn't account for mastery of skills.

 

Eagle at thirteen; can it happen? Yes, but for me it is very much the exception. The understanding of concepts and not just rote skill demonstration, leadership, maturity of judgement gained in part by real life experiences, analytical decision-making and problem-solving are just not there yet in the vast majority of 13 year-olds. Are they there in a 16 - 18 year-old? Not always, but usually at least much further developed. Sadly, I see many young Eagles who are not (and cannot be) taken seriously as the leaders they should be because they have yet to master the things that attaining Eagle should represent.

 

I must close by saying that a majority of Eagle Scouts that I have met through the years live up to the expectation of quality that comes with the title of Eagle Scout.(This message has been edited by Eagle74)

[Mike F]

I agree with this train of thought that the problem of immature boys on the path to Eagle should be worked within the Troop long before he gets to his Eagle BOR.

 

Meeting the leadership requirements for Star and Life are a good start. Expectations for successful completion of the requirement at this level should be made crystal clear. This has almost nothing to do with holding a title or wearing a position patch and everything to do with performance. Use the standard Troop mechanisms to coach him along the way. Monitor progress. But if he doesnt show satisfactory leadership during his tour of duty, this one simply doesnt go down for rank advancement credit only for experience and growth. It shouldnt come as a shock at the end the boy and adult leadership involved with him need to make expectations clear and he needs feedback as he progresses.

 

Ive never seen a Scout give significant static when denied leadership credit he knows he didnt meet expectations. (Wherever possible, recognize the improvement he did make, talk about the lessons he learned for next time, etc. Help him learn and grow from the experience. And recognize he may be in shock this may be the very first time someone tells him he didnt meet a performance standard. If done right, it will be good for him.)

 

Parents, however, are a different story thats where youll get the grief. If you see a problem coming, its a good idea to have a talk with mom or dad early in the process. With a little luck, theyll be as mature as their son, but dont bet on it.

 

[evmori]

dsteele,

You already went the extra mile for this Scout. Apparently, earning his Eagle isn't that important to this young man. I would not go any farther in trying to track this young man down. And if & when he does contact you, I would tell him he missed his deadline.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[le Voyageur]

Eagle74

 

Here's why my use of word "master". First, I work High Adventure Programs only (C.O.P.E. Climbing, Cycling, Expedition/Whitewater Canoeing, Backpacking,) and nothing else. Now, for a scout who is Star or above who has not "mastered" the basics of building a fire, knowing how to use map and compass, tying in to a harness with the correct knot, cooking a meal, pitching a tent, keeping clean, staying dry and warm, keeping his gear organized, becomes a liability very quickly in the back country.

Since advancement is not a concern in these older boy programs I am therefore free to set my own standards to ensure the welfare and safety of every crewmember.

 

Additionally, it is these same older scouts, preferably Eagles who should be teaching and training the younger scouts. If they haven't mastered the basics, then how can they teach skills they have not mastered?

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Saltheart said it all very well, thanks Saltheart. I found that about 5% or less of all the scouts have the drive, skills and natural talents to be a 13 or 14 year old Eagle. The rest need some help from others. You don't want a program that prevents young Eagles, but I also find that many troops beleive if the scout isn't life by 14, then they are hopeless. I don't agree that the parents are the problem. It's the adult leadership. Parent want what is best for their kids based off what they know about the program. How many Troops brag about their Eagle numbers to visiting Webelos Families? I had several sets of parents who ahd the drivers license carrot attitude and I sat down with all of them. After many many talks, most turned to our way of thinking that their son will do the best he can. In most cases, the scouts got eagle. If you're a troop that beleives letting the scout build his on trail of life, then you need to preach it, teach it, harpe on it and guide the parents. When I handed my SM hat to the next person, I told him that 50% of his job is working with the adults. Oh, and yes I lost a few familys to other troops because they only wanted the fast track to Eagle. But, our troop averages one Eagle every month, so you will find when you have a solid program with integrity, the parents can and will follow a program like that.

 

I guess I'm trying to say that if you beleive the adults are the problem, then start teaching and guiding them.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[slontwovvy]

It's been my experience that most (90%+) of 12 and 14 year old Eagle Scouts are fairly useless in camping and leadership needs. The best reason I can use as to why: they don't know what to do with what has been entrusted to them. They can hold a position fine--just so long as they can avoid leading. Some of the "positions of leadership" still amaze me at their inclusion on the list--positions of dedication maybe, but for all but one or two exceptional scouts nothing but that. 13 and 14 year old Eagles (again, the vast majority, but not all) do not understand the power that has been entrusted to them as an Eagle Scout, and the subsequent obligations that come with such an honor. They ignored the "simmer" method of Scouting, instead heading straight for the "serve" stage--they ignore the fact that most of their growth in Scouting does not take place rapidly, but instead slowly, over time and experience. As such, their leadership and camping skills have not been given time to develop. I'm reminded of the movie where the kid wakes up as an adult (though I forget the exact title). He's been given great new powers, but hasn't a clue how to use them. IMHO, young Eagles are much the same way.

 

Slont

[Fat Old Guy]

"It's the adult leadership. Parent want what is best for their kids based off what they know about the program."

 

It's both but the adult leadership allowed it to happen but that's probably because the adult leadership is usually the parents. I don't know if all parent really want "what's best for their kids." They often claim and even think that want what's best for their kids but often what they want is what will make them look good.

 

Let's looks at the sports fanatics who push their kids constantly to perform in sports. The drive doesn't come from the kid, it comes from the parent, "No! You cannot go to that picnic, you need to practice."

 

All too often, the adults leaders are the ones who have set the lofty goals for their kids and are pushing their kids to meet those goals. "No, you can't go to that picnic. You have to work on your radio merit badge project."

 

How many of these parents are really doing it for the kids? How much of it is for their own egos?