proper "punishment"

[troopmom]

I have been involved in our Troop for 5 years and have been to the last four summercamps. This year at camp we had 25 boys and 4 adults with me acting as leader as I have for the past 3 years. let me state that we have never had dangerous problems so this is new to me.We have had a weak SM and now we have a new one but he had to go out of town. He also has a "boys will be boys" attitude though.

okay here's the incident. This year we had some new boys go with us and lighting ones arm on fire and throwing paperballs on fire during class became the cool thing to do. These new boys were at the crux but almost 1/2 of the boys were involved with varying degrees. Many of us felt that we would like to see the 2 new families leave because we don't need that behavior spreading through the Troop.

One of the boys(not one of the new ones) thought that earning the Fire Safety merit badge would be a good as well as educational punishment. It was voted on at committee that all involved must finish the MB by the time the Troop training is over or not participate in the Troop until it is complete. The 2 new families feel that we are overreacting and they are causing a problem. one dad stating his son will not do it because we shouldn't be using a MB in this way. Now this Dad is talking in secret little groups has had the weak SM's (He's filling in while the Sm is out of town) son call a meeting of patrol leaders on Sat. with an hours notice to try to pursuade the boys that this is a bad idea when they had thought it fair at Monday's PLC. this dad is checking to see who is listed as committee members to see who's vote won't count in his opinion. We have always allowed any interested parent to have a vote. Right now there is a whole behind the scenes pursuation game going on when most of feel that it was voted on and that is what he will have to live with. All his son has to do is earn a MB that will eduacate him on the danger. We suggested maybe the more involved scouts be placed on probation and parents be required to go on the camping trips with Junior. This same dad informed us that we couldn't force parents to go etc.

Short and sweet-- Dangerous behavior--liability---training with pos. reinforcement--non-compliance--leave troop--committee votes yea--dad feels junior should just lose his firm'nchit---much manipulation. NOW WHAT?

I'm wondering

(This message has been edited by troopmom)(This message has been edited by troopmom)

[troopmom]

I forgot to add the newest saga. some are saying the SM is responsible for discipline not the committee so we should wait for him to return on the 17th of Aug.. Some of us are afraid that he will waiver and say that they don't have to do the training. I know COR is final. he used to be COR and I'm not sure if he is currently. I feel that if we tell the boys one thing then someone else comes and changes it by whining enough, we have done a diservice. I hope someone can help.(This message has been edited by troopmom)

[slontwovvy]

In my opinion (and I don't have BSA literature to quote, just my version of common sense), the committee should make the decision--more people results in more views and a greater support network for implementing the decision.

 

I'm not sure if doing the fire safety merit badge is the best idea--too many counselors for that badge seem to pencil-whip. What I'd do is invite a firefighter to come to a troop meeting and give a talk about why playing with fire is a bad thing to do--one in my area does this and has several burn pictures to show. The boys never played with fire again.

 

It is reasonable to put a scout on "parental supervision," but know that it will not work with all boys. If the father is going behind the scenes to try to save his kid, it is likely that the parent is more "friend" than "parent" and will do little to curb his boy's actions. However, do the probation, with endpoints--consequences for actions both good and bad.

 

Slont

[Fat Old Guy]

"We have always allowed any interested parent to have a vote."

 

We used to do this until it became a disaster in the making. Rabble rousers would get parents who never had anything to do with the running of the troop to come and vote. Of course, once they had their way, they were never seen again. Now, to vote you must be registered and have gone through Fast Start training.

 

When parents complained about the new system, they were told that the troop didn't belong them nor did it belong to us, we were the caretakers and if they wanted a say, they needed to sign up.

 

We still don't have a perfect system but it is getting better.

[evmori]

troopmom,

Excellent. The punishment fits the crime.

 

As far as the lobbying the dad is doing, this is wrong. The committee voted for it. And unless this dad is on the committee he has no say. End of discussion. If these people want to leave then I say let them.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[troopmom]

Thank you all for your reply. Slont, I know what you are talking about with pencil-whipping MBCs but in this case we have done what you're talking about. We have set up a 3-hour session with a fireman who happens to be a Webelos den leader in my pack and is signed up as a MBC now. The session is on Troop night, the firestation is right next door, and this guy is great with kids. He also intends to show pictures or get a burn victim.

Fat old guy, I also can see how the no-show parents could cause trouble and we may need to institute that policy although we don't have it now and this dad is trying to use it to overrule our vote(although I think we still have a majority). But I know most of the parents that dropoff and pick-up and they would approve.

Ed, I agree with you also, he should go if he doesn't agree. However again, his son is one of those guys who's doesn't want to be in scouts but dad is gonna make him an eagle. I sit on eagle boards and just with the kids stature, he isn't Eagle material(pants down, drug slur etc). You're right he is more friend than dad but he feels we weren't supervising enough. so we told he should come if he wants someone to follow his kid to class to make sure the fire antics don't occur. One incident happened while we were in adult training(during class time and another was while we were cooking hobo meals when I had no clue that they were behind a tent and they were that un-TRUSTWORTHY. During classtime, I'm not following 25 boys to class. I agree he should go, I wish he would(This message has been edited by troopmom)

[sctmom]

You said that one of the boys came up with the idea of doing the Fire Safety MB and that the PLC has already voted on it. Sounds like the committee backs up what the boys say. This sounds reasonable to me.

 

The parents of the new boys need to understand more about how Boy Scouts is run. The father trying to call another PLC needs to back out.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Great Wednesday all

 

I think the adults reaction was wonderful for the situation. I would hesitate calling it a punishment because you are encouraging the scouts to learn why the behavior was wrong, and proper handling of a dangerous tool. You are also giving them a choice. For the youth to gain independence and grow in running the troop, they have to have the trust of the adults. Learning about fire safety is helping both the adults grow in their trust of the scouts, and growth of the boys learning how to act more mature in similar situations. So I would try to keep growth and punishment in their own categories.

 

Now I believe post here is really about an adult problem. If your committee doesnt stand together now and talk with this adult, your problems will not end. The committee has to confront the other adult about his behavior. Explain to him why the committee is choosing the action they have given to the scouts, AND that he has a choice to accept it or not participate in the program. It is important that he gets a choice. We found that when adults are given a choice and held to that choice, they dont feel trapped into lashing back, but either conform or leave. But you have to do it now and you have to get everyone on the committee stand together. This is one of those annoyances that you can nip in the bud if you take action now. I would also inform your UC and DE about this so that you have records and a third party that can give an unbiased opinion and support.

 

I know this seems like a lot for just one adult, but for some reason our Troop has had more than its share of over dominating adults lately and when we handled it this way, the adults solve the problems for us. Parents have to learn that they cant push the program around to make if fit just their son. If every parent does that, it would be pure chaos and nobody gets anything from this great program.

 

Good luck

 

Barry

 

[troopmom]

Thank you for your reply, Unfortunately he was at the committe meeting when we discussed for an hour and a half the instructional opportunity as we have called it. We explained how a boy came up with the idea, the PLC approved and then we voted on it and now the committee approves. He argued during the whole discussion time that no Troop would use a MB this way. He was told that that is what we are going to vote on and that we feel that if a scout and his family don't feel that the deed was dangeous enough to require intense fire education, at least more intense than firem'nchit, then we don't need that type of liability. This father flat out said that scouts play with fire that's just what they do. Now he is trying to convince everyone that they should change their mind to change the majority also that it shouldn't have been a committee vote but only up to the Scoutmaster who currently is the substituing weak SM whose son is friends with the firestarter.

[SagerScout]

1) I agree with the committee recommendation for the MB work - although

2) IMHO you can't call that punishment at all, it is an opportunity.

3) I totally agree with Eagledad that this is an adult problem - does this father not see anything wrong with his son's behavior?

 

HE needs scout training, and fast, and it needs to be put to him rather bluntly, something like this:

 

IN SCOUTING, we hold the boys responsible for their behavior. If you want your son to be constantly supervised to keep him from doing idiotic things that any 7-year old knows not to do - he needs to be removed from scouts, good luck watching him 24/7 as he goes through his teen years. See ya at juvie. ON the other hand: If you want your son to learn to be responsible for his choices.... AND have the opportunity to "play with fire" in a safe manner....AND learn to be self-sufficient and able to keep himself safe outdoors, indoors, around water, and where ever he goes...AND be able to be a help rather than a hindrance in an emergency situation.... well, shut up, go take your training and get with the program.

 

You'd be amazed at the lengths parents will go through to prevent their children from growing up. I had a mom remove her 4th grade daughter from my GS troop against the girl's wishes (tears and everything) because the mom felt that her daughter should be released from the troop meeting as soon as mom showed up to pick her up- whether or not the girl had done her part of cleaning up the meeting room. The girl, being very bright, had learned that all she had to do to shirk her share of the work was to dawdle as mommie insisted she leave on time regardless.... and although we usually allowed sufficient time for cleanup she simply would play until mom rescued her from her responsibility. When I finally said "enough, she MUST do her kapers" mom suddenly just took her out so her poor baby wouldn't have to put up markers or wipe tables. The girl did not realize she was going to lose scouts altogether, she was just being a normal kid acting in a normal kid fashion - why do it myself when I can make Ms. J do it for me?

[mk9750]

Eagledad: "Parents have to learn that they cant push the program around to make if fit just their son. If every parent does that, it would be pure chaos and nobody gets anything from this great program."

 

Thanks for a great quote. I have offended far too many parents trying to say this. Wish I had these words before. I suspect one or two boys (minimum) might still be in Scouting if I had said what I wanted to say THIS way instead of MY way.

 

Mark

 

[Sparkie]

Speaking from personal experience, i would rather see the boy(s) tour a burn unit. If they think lighting a boys arm on fire is fun, why would you think they would take a MB seriously? They need to see the consequences of their actions, i think this will straighten them up more so than a MB class. JMO

 

Sparkie(This message has been edited by Sparkie)

[troopmom]

sparkie

That will part of the training session provided.I agree this boy may not learn and he will be kicked eventually but the others who were involved will learn how stupid they were and get a MB, too.

[Eagledad]

I see. The committee picks the SM, if they don't like the SM's program, they pick another one. So the committee is OK.

 

I agree the scouts don't have to sign up for the MB, but you do have the right to use the MB as a guideline for your course and expect the PLC ask all the scout to attend for fire safety. I asked our PLC to do this very thing when we had a weekend of bad fire safety practices and they learned a lot. The PLC even invited the local Fire Dept. to bring a fire truck for the scouts to tour.

 

The adults and PLC must and are required to provide a safe place where all parents can trust the scouts and the troop adults to use proper fire safety techniques. This is a test of strength of your committee. The call has been made, stand by it. If you need some help, call the DE, DC and UC. Have them talk with this guy. Most people will be impressed by your troops response. They will support you.

 

Scouting is a wonderful program for our sons until the adults get involved.

 

Scouting Cheers

 

Barry

 

[dan]

Eagledad

Excellent advice!

 

troopmom

the one statement that I saw no one touch on was

"This same dad informed us that we couldn't force parents to go etc."

And he is correct, but the committee or scoutmaster can tell him unless he goes his son cannot go, but I think that his involvement may make it worse. No matter what training he gets.

Good-luck and please keep us informed.

 

SagerScout

Oh boy another new work to look up!

kapers