Is a father acceptable?

[Bob White]

NeilUp,

The Venture Leaders handbook speaks specifically of Venturing Activities.

 

So are you agreeing that there must be a female present?

[NJCubScouter]

Oh boy.

 

Here is what the G2SS says:

 

Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

And here is Bob's quote from the Venturing Leader Manual, page 333:

 

Co-ed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders.

 

Whether anybody likes it or not, and I suspect someone won't, it seems to me that there are only 3 possibilities here:

 

1. "Leader" as used in both passages means an adult leader registered with the BSA, in which case there is a contradiction in the language. Stated another way, the passage "one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA" is incorrect, because they BOTH must be registered members of the BSA.

 

2. "Leader" as used in both passages can mean someone who is NOT an adult leader registered with the BSA. In other words, "leader" is being used in the generic sense, as someone who is leading at a particular time, rather than a registered BSA leader. I can't buy this possibility, as it probably conflicts with every other use of the word "leader" in every other publication of the BSA.

 

3. The passage in the Venturing Leader Manual applies to Venturing, while the passage in G2SS applies to something else. But what else could it apply to? Where else besides Venturing are there "Coed overnight activities"? (I think it is clear that "coed" applies to youth, not adults; otherwise you could not have a non-leader mother attend a camping trip that is otherwise all-male, and you CAN do that; in fact, because all the youths are male, the non-leader mother could be the "second adult.") Therefore there are no "coed" outings in a Boy Scout troop, and as Neil explained, "family outings" in a troop or pack don't count because every child (BSA member or not) will have a parent along. So the "coed overnight activities" in the G2SS MUST apply to Venturing, and therefore you have one passage that says only one of the male-female adult team must be a registered leader, and two that imply otherwise because "leader" implies "registered."

 

So the only logical answer is number 1: There is a conflict in the language. It needs to be fixed. As I said, I don't expect full agreement with that, but it seems clear to me.

[NJCubScouter]

And just to make clear, what I have said does NOT deal directly with the situation that started this thread. I think I said that early in the thread. If there is at least one male and one female Venturing youths present, there must be a male "leader" and a female "leader" present. In this case, the girl's dad is not enough. The issue is with what "leader" means.

[NeilLup]

Don't we have fun!

 

Yes, Bob, I agree that for a coed Venturing activity, there need to be both a male and female adult leader present. I hope that I never implied that I thought anything else.

 

NJCubScouter. To me, your alternative 2 appears to be clear, logical and satisfies the requirement. The sentence from G2SS clearly states that there need to be two adult leaders and one needs to be registered. That pretty clearly means that the other one does not need to be registered.

 

I'm not sure where the implication is that "leader" means "registered leader." I don't see that at all. As I wrote earlier, if the BSA wants to say "registered leader" they know how to say it. I believe that, in this case, the G2SS is specifically stating that you can have a non registered adult who serves as a "leader" on a coed event.

 

However, you do raise a good point. The many elements of BSA literature are written by different human beings. Contradictions and inconsistencies do exist although I don't believe that this is one.

[EagleInKY]

While a little confusing on the surface, I believe it makes sense. Let's examine the legalese, first. The G2SS, probably one of the most legally scrutinized documents the BSA publishes, establishes the fact that a "leader" need not be a "registered leader". Therefore, adults over 21 can be "leaders" on your campouts. This is common practice in all of scouting. Many parents will come and serve as "adult leadership".

 

The Venturing Leader Manual, along with the Scoutmaster's Manual, Cub Leader's Manual, and even the Boy Scout Handbook, all serve a specific purpose. They provide guidelines and advice to leaders on how to do their job. But, they do not supercede specific policies, such as the G2SS, which is designed to protect the Scouts, the Leaders and the BSA. The wording in these manuals will always be slightly vague, to allow for changes in the specific policy. The wording in this case "require male and female adult leaders" intentionally allows for the G2SS to expand or limit controls as the BSA deems necessary. Obviously, they felt that there was a minimum that would always be met - at least one male and one female. The G2SS could change in its next revision to specify that both have to be registered. If they did this, the Venturing Leader's Manual would still be accurate and not require revision.

 

As for the OP, I agree that the girl's dad does not meet the requirement. That's my 2 cents.

[FScouter]

The G2SS says registered leader. That doesnt mean or imply that there are other kinds of leaders such as an unregistered leader. That makes as much sense as saying that there are registered Boys Scouts and unregistered Boy Scouts. To be a Boy Scout, one must be registered. And to be a Boy Scout leader, one must be registered.

 

Scouting activities are supervised and led by leaders such as Den Leaders, Scoutmasters, and Venturing advisors. BSA leaders are registered members of BSA. Its really a stretch to think one can be a leader of a coed Venturing overnight activity, and that it is acceptable with BSA to not be a registered member. Leaders are approved by the chartered organization. Leaders have their backgrounds checked and approved by BSA.

 

Bottom line, it is a disservice to the youth members to try to run a crew without the proper leadership. Dad is not a leader. Dad is not female. Dad is only a dad.

 

[NJCubScouter]

EagleinKY says:

 

The G2SS, probably one of the most legally scrutinized documents the BSA publishes, establishes the fact that a "leader" need not be a "registered leader".

 

Where does it establish that? It may be implied, because otherwise portions of sentences (and the sentence in the Venture Leader Manual) are either in conflict with each other, or have no meaning. But I don't think it is made clear.

 

What I find sort of humorous about this discussion is that we are in effect using age-old principles of statutory interpretation that I learned in law school, to try to interpret these BSA documents. Some of you are doing a good job of "statutory interpretation" without the benefit of having learned this in a formal setting. Among the principles I am talking about are: A specific rule takes precedence over a general rule; it is presumed that every word has a meaning (in other words, an interpretation should be avoided if it means there is "surplusage" or meaningless words); that if a word (such as "registered") is omitted, the omission has a meaning; and that if all else fails, you look to the intent and purpose of the rule-making body. In this case, the problem in my opinion is that none of these rules really solves the issue because some of them are in conflict with each other and you are still left arguing about what was intended.

 

More importantly, I do not think this is how rules should be set up in a volunteer organization. I really don't think the BSA intended that volunteers, most of whom are not lawyers, be left to puzzle over meanings and discuss things in terms of legal principles of interpretation. Any leader (registered!) should be able to open up the G2SS, Venture Leader Manual and other manuals, and find a clear answer that has only one possible meaning, and is not contradicted in another book. I would say that if it is possible to interpret a rule in two or more different ways, it should be rewritten. And frankly I also think that if the person in command of BSA publications were to be shown this thread and the particular sentences in question, he/she would be more likely to say, "Oops, better fix that" than "No, well, you see, this could be interpreted to mean that, and..."

 

At least, I hope so.

[FScouter]

Your're right NJCubScouter. It's too bad that some of us spend a whole lot of time picking apart a document in an effort to justify our positions. The lay person really has no option but to read the BSA literature and interpret it to the best of his ability. I think that sometimes we know in our hearts that what we want to do is wrong, but go ahead anyway, justifying our action based on ambiguities in the literature.

 

This thread started out that way. Bsabrit wants to take his co-ed crew camping, but he doesn't have a female leader. He knows he cannot do that and has come to this forum with his dilemma. There really isn't much to say about that problem except "find a female leader".

 

[Bob White]

Personal opinion.

 

I think the purpose behind the BSA writings is to what is in the best interest of the safety of the scouts. I am hopefull that all the leaders reading these posts, and the ones leading units, have the same goal in mind.

 

If so, why not follow the action that is in the best interest of the scouts. Would it really be a good idea to send as a unit "leader" someone who you do not have referennces on, who you do not have a criminal background check on, who has not had their character and abilities approved by the charter organization and committee chair?

 

Is that allowed, evidently some think so. Is that the 'best' thing you can do for the safety of the scouts? I would hope your answer would be, no. Any person "leading" the scouts on a scout activity, should be a registered member of the BSA.

[NeilLup]

NJCubScouter makes very good points. I would only comment that there is no one "in command" of BSA publications at a level below Roy Williams, the Chief Scout Executive. Each BSA division publishes its own material. They try to coordinate with other divisions but sometimes things fall through the cracks, particularly when one publication is put to bed and ready to go out and another division changes something which is referred to in the publication. Or else, the publication is on a 3 year review cycle (or longer) and something changes during that cycle.

 

I completely agree with BobWhite that is is a good idea and probably the best idea for leaders on units to be registered and go through the procedure required to be registered. The duscussion is whether it is mandated or whether that is up to the judgement of the leaders involved.

 

Example:

 

It is mandated to have two deep leadership. If, at the last minute, one leader cancels and you have only one adult, you cancel the trip. No judgement required or permitted.

 

Now, let's say that at the last minute, the registered female Venturing leader cancels but an unregistered female also plans to come along as a "leader." Do you cancel the trip? Judgement is permitted here in my opinion.

 

The words in G2SS are written by lawyers and by very sophisticated laymen. Among other things, I believe it is presumed that they may be used in evidence in court cases. So it is appropriate to scrutinize them very carefully.

[Bob White]

Technical point of interest for anyone interested...

 

As it was explained to me during a tour of the BSA National Headquarters, BSA publications edits and publishes all BSA materials. The various divisions then buy back the materials from BSA Publications.

 

 

"Now, let's say that at the last minute, the registered female Venturing leader cancels but an unregistered female also plans to come along as a "leader." Do you cancel the trip? Judgement is permitted here in my opinion."

 

My judgement would be, I would rather risk the scouts disappointment than risk their safety. Shame on me if, as a leader, a plan was allowed to hinge on the attendance of any one person.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"There are reasons behind the policy of having female leaders on outings with female members and many of those reasons are things the female venturer will probably not want to discuss or have seen by her father."

 

Rampant sexism, that's all it is. No one cares about the things that a boy doesn't want to discuss with a woman who isn't his mother.

[EagleInKY]

I wasn't trying to parse words or find loopholes, just simply reading what it says. NeiLup put in a very practical way that I (now) wish I had:

 

"Now, let's say that at the last minute, the registered female Venturing leader cancels but an unregistered female also plans to come along as a "leader." Do you cancel the trip? Judgement is permitted here in my opinion."

 

Sorry Bob, I often agree with you, but not this time. For example, we often have moms or dads accompany our troop's campouts. Most of these are registered committee members or ASMs, but not all of them. Additionally, I encourage that any of them that come on campouts (including those not registered) take the Youth Protection Training. If they haven't, I always review the basics with them.

 

[bsabrit]

Wow, this question seems to have generated some interesting discussion!!

 

Thought I would give you an update...the crew went camping, female venturer included, but no female leader. Her father was chaperone. No problems encountered and everyone had a great time.

 

During the camp, our female venturer was unanimously elected Crew President. She will be excellent in the role

 

We still have not identified a female who will become an advisor with the crew, nor one that would be willing to come camping with us in March. We have however agreed (including the girl's father) that unless we do, our Crew President will be unable to attend that camping trip.

 

Whilst I agree with the reasoning behind the rules, it does seem just a little unfair to the one female in the crew. I wonder how long we can keep her interested whilst she is not allowed to participate in our camping/overnight activities?

 

[Bob White]

"For example, we often have moms or dads accompany our troop's campouts. Most of these are registered committee members or ASMs, but not all of them.

 

So have we, but, they never go as leaders. They go as what they are, guests and parents. The leaders are always registered trained scouters. Parents are not trained in the methods, policies or procedures of scouting activities, and so they do not have leadership interaction with the scouts. Knowing YP is excellent but that teaches how to keep scouts safe, not how to lead a scouting activity. There are always a minimum of two leaders or we don't go, no matter how many parents might be going.

 

This is not a requirement. However I see it as a "best practices" situation. I can think of one event in 3 years that we had to cancel.

 

By the way I cannot help to think that to say "we know we did it wrong but everything went fine" is questionable leadership at best. Things could have just as easily gone very wrong, and all adults involved, and the CO, would have found themselves facing whatever followed without the benefit of support from their council or the BSA because they violated the YP policies and the activities policies of their program. It could have been a very costly mistake in many ways.

 

I'm guessing since the incorrect leadership was in attendance that no tour permit was applied for or approved, compounding the problem even further.