Is a father acceptable?

[bsabrit]

Our crew is small with only one female Venturer at the moment. We are planning our first camping trip and, of course, our female venturer wants to go along. She is the daughter of one of the advisors who also intends to go on the camping trip. (2 days, 1 night). My question is this...Do we need a female leader to attend, or is the fact that the girls father will be there acceptable. We always maintain two-deep leadership at meetings and activities, but we currently have no female leadership in the crew, despite making requests of several people. Your input would be gratefully received.

[Be_Prepared]

The G2SS is pretty clear on this:

 

...Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA

[LovetoCamp]

Certainly, the father makes this situation acceptable.

[NJCubScouter]

male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA

 

Something seems curious about this language. I thought that an "adult leader" was someone who was registered with the BSA. Yet it says two adult leaders (one of each gender) but only ONE of whom must be registered. Does that mean that in this sentence, the female "adult leader" could be ANY woman age 21 or other regardless of whether she is actually a "leader" in the crew or not? If that is true, it appears that this female "leader" does not have to be a parent, which is different from non-coed outings. (For outings in general, it is: "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older."

 

Unfortunately, either way, dad does not appear to fill the bill. Maybe he should, maybe in a future version of G2SS he will, but for now he does not.

 

This makes me wonder about the first camping trip my son and I ever went on with his current troop. It was announced as a "family outing" and was a whitewater rafting trip including two nights of camping. Those attending consisted of about 15 Scouts, about five fathers, and one older sister (about age 17 and who I believe is a Girl Scout but not a Venturer.) The girl's father (a troop committee member) and 2 of her brothers were there. I believe she had her own tent and I had the impression that this was not the first time she has been "out" with the troop, and there were no problems. But there were no adult females on the trip at all. That probably was not ok unless there is some special rule for "family outings" which there probably isn't.

[bsabrit]

I see that as with the crew advisors, opinion is somewhat split regarding whether this is acceptable. :-)

 

[dsteele]

Bsabrit:

 

I'm guessing that your crew has not run this question past your council -- by calling the district executive or whoever processes Tour Permits.

 

You must have a female leader if there is a female on the trip. What was quoted from the Guide to Safe Scouting is the policy. NJCubscouter is questioning the wording, but he isn't denying that the policy applies. That's my official answer as a professional scouter . . . but you should still check with your council for local interpretation.

 

There are reasons behind the policy of having female leaders on outings with female members and many of those reasons are things the female venturer will probably not want to discuss or have seen by her father.

 

The answer to your question is no.

 

DS

[NeilLup]

NJCubScouter:

 

I believe there is a separate rule for "family outings." However, I believe you can't go halfway on that. In other words, if it is a family outing, every child that goes must have at least one parent or guardian going also. Normally, this alternative is used in Cub Scouting.

 

I suspect this alternative would be available for the Venturing but having a full complement of parents might not be thrilling for the members.

 

This does pose another interesting question of a sort which normally comes up in connection with two deep leadership. Let's say that a Venturing crew with female members goes on such a camping outing with one female leader present. No problem. The female leader gets a call from home and has to go home. Do the female Venturers have to go home too?

 

Now a bit of a variant. Is a Boy Scout Troop permitted to go camping with only female adult leaders? Or do the female adults make it a coed activity meaning that at least one male leader is needed. (I'm not talking about good ideas here, only about what is required.)

[dan]

Is a Boy Scout Troop permitted to go camping with only female adult leaders? YES

Or do the female adults make it a coed activity meaning that at least one male leader is needed. NO

The only place I remember GTSS discussing female leaders is having separate sleeping quarters for female leaders.

 

[Campfire Fairy]

Hey. Being a girl in a co-ed crew, I can help you out here... hopefully, anyway

 

First of all, it is my understanding that yes, if the girl's father attends, he is her "chaperone" and you do not need a female leader. This only works for that one girl, however. She can't bring a friend and have her dad be the friend's chaperone, too.

 

As far as female leaders go, no, they don't need to be registered with the BSA. My crew has always been desperate for female chaperones to the point where we almost steal them from other crews, but we've also had a few young women who were students of one of the leaders, a college professor, as well as older co-workers of one of the youth members.

 

As long as at least one adult leader attending the outing is a registered (and I guess trained) BSA member, the female chaperones can be plucked randomly for a crowd. If it weren't for all that jazz about not breaking the law and all...

 

Of course, I don't have the handbook and all its clutters of regulations memorized, so I could be wrong and if anyone would like to prove such, I will graciously retract my comments. (This message has been edited by Campfire Fairy)

[Bob White]

Page 333 of the Venturing Leader Manual, center column, heading Leadership Policy for All Trips and Outings.

 

"Co-ed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders."

[Campfire Fairy]

*graciously retracts her comment*

 

[Bob White]

You may keep your sword.

[NWScouter]

Would it not be like in Boy Scouts where an unregistered adult in this case a female be allowed if it is a parent or guardian (mom) and then be counted as the female adult. But if some is not a parent or guardian and going on the outing they must be registered. Campfire Fairys description of her outings put her crew in violation of Youth Protection

[Bob White]

No. Just as Boy Scouting has a different set of rules for outings than Cub Scouts, Venturing has a different set of rules than Boy Scouts. You have to adapt your thinking to methods of each specific program. The coed youth program has different needs and requirements.

 

The Venturing regulations set by the National Executive Committee do not say a male and female adult. It says a male and female adult leader. That means approved, registered, adults.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NeilLup]

The BSA knows how to write the words "registered leaders." If that is what they mean to say, that is what they say. "Leaders" is not a synonym for "registered Leaders."

 

The specific paragraph out of the Guide to Safe Scouting which I just copied is the following:

 

"# Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA."

 

Note please that the paragraph is extremely clear that ONE of the leaders must be registered.