Hypothetical YPT Question

[JoeBob]

Taserdoc:

 

Here's how I'd interpret your hypothetical:

 

Two boys did something stupid. Their respective SMs took them aside for a private ass chewing.

The boys hit on YPT as way to get revenge for their hurt feelings. "I was alone with the SM (non-sexual YPT violation) and he yelled at me!" (Bullying)

If the SM admits to those allegations, why would anyone higher up want to dignify the boys complaint by talking to them?

[Basementdweller]

I think the biggy here is were "kicked out of their units" from the original poster.....

 

 

Well let me see kicking a boy out of my unit....what would it take.

 

Fighter, gets in fights at the drop of the hat,

 

Thief...caught multiple times stealing

 

Convicted murderer or rapist a car thief and burgler....ya probably....

 

Beyond than not sure.

 

My point is it takes a lot to get kicked out of a unit.

[Beavah]

My point is it takes a lot to get kicked out of a unit.

 

False accusation of a YP violation would likely do it. I don't reckon many scouters would be willing to take a lad like that out in the field again. Nor would I recommend it.

 

B

 

[Eagle92]

Beav,

 

Not necessarily get kicked out, but have the leaders on guard 24/7. Had a scout lie about about me to try and get out of trouble. Luckily other adults and scouts were around and bverified he was lying.

 

But a year later he accused a very active and well respected leader of a YP violation. He was caught by the leader being out after hours when the leader was walking from the showers back to the campsite. To get out of trouble, he accused the leader of making a pass. Unfortunately it with no witnesses to collaborate, the leader was kicked out, investigated, but no charges were brought against them.

 

Unfortunately I had to deal with the young man witht he OA, and always made darn sure someone else was around all the time.

[Taserdoc]

I am stunned, at the least. Given this scenario, most of you automatically side with the SM??? I realize that there is good and bad on all sides, but to automatically assume that the scouts lied??? That it must have been that the Scout took was was said wrong? Used it to get even?

 

As I said before, in this hypothetical situation, Council never even looked into the complaint. I find it almost disturbing that most of you believe that things can't be, and arent sometimes covered up.

 

I love and believe in this program, so don't think that I am bashing it. I am curious though how many of you would change your opinions, if it were your own sons.

 

Automatically blaming the youth, is how so many incidents of abuse are, and have been, covered up.

 

most of you say that this is too open af a hypothetical. In reality, it contains more than enough information. If complaints are being filed, they should ALL be, at least, thoroughly looked into. BSA policy states that clearly, and also states that the alleged Leader is to be swiftly removed.

 

These are some very scary replies. Do a Google search for BSA Orange County and see what comes up. Cover ups and worse.

 

For the record I am a long time scouter, (youth and adult), and love this program, so as I said I am not bashing the program. Just the people who are worried about what they can achieve, and fail to protect our youth.

 

As I said, what if it was your son?(This message has been edited by TASERDOC)

[Beavah]

Nah, Taserdoc, you're either misreading or misunderstanding BSA policy. There is no provision for "automatic" removal for what you fully admit is a non-sexual, non-criminal accusation of some vague "YPT violations". I think yeh also don't quite understand the role of the BSA council. It's not an investigative agency. Nobody at your council office has that skill or training. It's also not responsible for the leadership in each unit. That is the role and duty of the Chartering Partner, eh? To select and supervise the leadership of that Chartered Organization's troop. All the BSA council does is assist in an advisory role.

 

So perhaps, hypothetically speaking, the complaints in this case have been hypothetically misdirected to the improper hypothetical organization.

 

For the record, most of us here are long-time scouters, eh? Folks who also love the program and care deeply about each and every scout. I don't think anyone here is "siding" with anybody, since we don't know the people and they're hypothetical people anyways. What we're doin' is giving you our best guesses and advice based on the extremely limited information you've provided.

 

To answer your question, no I would not say anything different if this was my own son. If he ever did cry "wolf" by implying an Orange-County like scenario when in fact it had nuthin' to do with sexual abuse at all, he'd be spendin' quite a bit of time out back of the woodshed.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[shortridge]

Taserdoc,

 

The Scouts' side of the story was presumably contained in the complaints they filed. Can you explain what information the SE would have gained from interviewing them that would have led to the SMs being kicked out?

 

What specific things - not just the vague hypothetical mush you're peddling - would *you* have had the SE do to properly investigate?

 

You haven't given us the faintest whiff of useful information to try to provide insight. The fact that people in this thread have almost unanimously come down on the SM's side should tell you that perhaps your perspective is the one that's skewed.

 

And generally, if you're looking for allies, you may want to halt the antagonism and be a bit more polite.

[Taserdoc]

Actually first off, the responses are based off of the opinion that the scout(s) lied.

 

The SM handbook, (just to name one source), Clearly states that;

 

"Emotional abuse occurs when a young person is continually berated and denigraded, severly jeopardizing his self esteem" SM handbook PG. 136.

 

"The Boy Scouts of America considers child abuse unacceptable and has developed a five point strategy to combat it"

 

Point five; "swifty remove and report alleged offenders" SM handbook pg. 137.

 

I do not in any way "misunderstand" the Council's role. I understand that if they recognize bullying as child abuse, and they have proceedures in place to combat and correct it, they are legally bound to do so.

 

I am not looking for "allies", this is just a hypothetical question. As far as my view being skewed, that is amusing at best. Just seems to me that most of you can't, or are unwilling to give the scouts the benefit of the doubt. Scary stuff.(This message has been edited by taserdoc)

[KC9DDI]

Well, the beauty of a hypothetical situation is that the facts can be invented to support any pre-existing conclusion you want. In my hypothetical world, there's no reason to remove these hypothetical Scouters, even with giving the hypothetical Scouts the benefit of the hypothetical doubt.

 

Unfortunately real situations are a bit more complex. And seeing as there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between this "hypothetical" situation, and anything in the real world, it doesn't seem worth continuing this hypothetical conversation.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I reckon by your approach that you are the hypothetical parent of one of these hypothetical lads?

 

Yeh pulled a bunch of quotes from different places and mushed 'em all together, but yeh need to understand they're talkin' about very different things. Emotional abuse by a parent or guardian is indeed a crime in most states, and the BSA does indeed encourage scouters to report to the proper child services agency when they have reasonable suspicion that a parent/guardian is emotionally abusing their child.

 

That is not the same thing as bullying, which is generally thought of as a youth-on-youth form of harassment, and which is not a criminal activity in most jurisdictions. We try to protect lads from bullying within scouting by respondin' constructively.

 

Child abuse is a crime in all states, but it's defined differently in each state. In most states, it's again a matter of physical abuse by a parent or guardian, not to be confused with sexual battery or other sorts of crimes that may be perpetrated by others against kids. Yep, we're against all of 'em, and we teach scouters to report suspicions of child abuse to the appropriate child protection services and evidence of other crimes to the appropriate law enforcement agency. For the latter, if they occurred within scouting, then also to notify the SE.

 

None of that of course has anything to do with da hypothetical you posed, eh?

 

So no, the BSA does not recognize bullying as child abuse. I don't think anybody does, at least outside of special interest lobbies makin' emotional cases. No, the BSA itself doesn't really have procedures in place to correct bullying, but they do try to help units through training and whatnot. And no, even if a private organization like the BSA had internal procedures about something, that doesn't make 'em "legally bound" to do anything. Any more than your family rule about bedtime "legally binds" yeh to enforce it on SuperBowl Sunday.

 

Take a step back, Taserdoc. Right now you're runnin' emotionally hot and that means you're not thinkin' as clearly as yeh might otherwise. Support your kid not by tryin' to go after other folks, but by bein' there for him. Let him be the one goin' off about how unfair the situation is. Just be there with love and da mature sense that this too shall pass.

 

Hypothetically.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Taser,

 

Without knowing details, there is not much we can say. I've been around a while, both as pro and vol, and I've seen and heard things on both sides of the case; adults did something, as well as the youth are lying.

[Basementdweller]

Beavah....you are very correct......A scout who made an accusation to the DE or SE about me regarding a YPT violation would never be in my presence again or have any communication....... This would be for my and my scouts protection.

 

 

And quoting passages and pages from documents make me believe you are merely grinding an ax.......

 

So I did the Google search and it turned up one pedophile....... Why don't you post links to what you would like us to see.

 

 

If it were my son, I would pick him up dust him off and find another troop that is more suited to his temperament......

 

Taser......I am probably a very sympathetic ear when it comes to issues with councils and districts....I take YPT very seriously.......You have given us zero information beyond the boys were victims and the SM was mean to them......seems pretty thin.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Twocubdad]

As you presented it, doc, the most pertinent "fact" from your hypothetical was the Scout Executive reviewed the complaints and didn't find sufficient evidence to merit further discussion. The most reasonable conclusion is the complaints were without merit, NOT that the SE is engaged in some sort of cover up. Do cover ups happen? I'm sure they do. But is that the most likely explaination? Come on.

 

Clearly this isn't a hypothetical. Clearly you have knowledge of the situation you can't share with us. That's fine. But don't get all indignant because the "hypothetical" information you chose to share doesn't lead us to your understanding of the situation.

 

Not sure what you're looking for here. Validation? If you're really looking for usable advice, I posted in the first response you're not going to get it with the information you've chosen to share. Perhaps an online forum isn't the place to post the information. That's fine, too, and I can respect your descretion. But don't get upset with the others here because we don't see what you see.

[fred8033]

Taserdoc quoted: "Emotional abuse occurs when a young person is continually berated and denigrated, severely jeopardizing his self esteem" SM handbook PG. 136."

 

I'm one who does consider it emotional abuse. I've seen it. I hate it. The trouble is that unless its really really bad there's not much one can do about it. Also, I can imagine some parents not minding their sons getting a verbal whipping. They'd call our attitude coddling the scouts.

 

BSA just can't do much. They don't see these leaders day after day. And, they've probably never heard the yelling or derogatory comments. Legally? It needs to get extremely bad before the law steps in. So it's really up to the charter organization to choose, screen and monitor the leaders. Charter Exec --> COR --> CC --> ....

 

...

 

For berating, denigrating and self-esteem abuse, the only effective enforcer is the scout's parent and the other parents in the unit. If they see a leader that can't keep his cool, they need to step in and/or get their sons out of there.

 

In scouting, I've seen scouters loose their cool and start yelling and berating scouts. It's not fun. I sort of view it as much job to step in at those times. And it happened to my son on his Jamboree trip. And I'm still livid about it.

 

...

 

But what your described had multiple scoutmasters (different units). It's hard (not impossible, jamboree) to imagine it. And it's hard to imagine what the council can do about it. They'd probably need a repeated pattern established across troops with lots of visibility.

 

 

[moosetracker]

OK.. Let me tell you my "hypothetical story"..

 

So my hypothetical son was in his first hypothetical troop.

Him, a mentally slow scout, and 2 other scouts. Troop gets about 30 - 40 boys per year from 3 to 4 surrounding troops, so in first month sizes them up chooses the top 10, then weeds out the rest by yelling and screaming at them, letting them know they will make sure that they never make Eagle etc., finding reasons they can't go on trips (no partner for you.. "Guess you have to stay home".. 3 minutes later another boy wants to go on trip.. "Oh we will find a space for you" and they do. Etc. Etc.

 

No sexual abuse, no physical abuse..

 

So took hypothetical son out of hypothetical troop and put him in another. Talked to the leaders and told them they were about to loose the mentally slow child by their actions. Reply was "That would be for the best.".. This child left soon after..

 

Lodged a complaint. Nothing. Went down to talk to DE.. Nothing..

 

This is what I was told. "We do not investigate these matters until there are 3 complaints mad by 3 different people for the same person."..

 

Other boys stayed & stayed.. Was told of some horrible mental abuse they took. One became on the brink of 18, had done all eagle requirements but SM refused signing him off for Eagle because he had never been SPL, (a rule he made) but would never let him become SPL as he selected the pool of scout canidates and would not select him to even be allowed to run. Father finally got in and threatened the SM, to get him to sign off. other boy really loved hiking and they had set up rules that barred him from ever going on a troop hike.

 

Found out about a 2nd complaint. Then found out that an investigation took place on a 3rd complaint. SM was kicked out of scouting.. By that time he was running a "selective group" of scouts that had joining rights that were not fair to all boys joining.

 

Between my complaint an the 3rd complaint about a 5 years span..

 

If it is not sexual or physical abuse, the best thing is to have the boys or parents lodge the complaint, and move on. They don't do very well with answering mental abuse accusations as others have said, the parent is suspect of making it all up. And normally it is not sever enough to call in the police over the situation.

P.S. Troop was self-chartered, so no COR to contact. SM was charismatic, had most adult leaders sucked into his view of life. (Including my husband, who was seeing the situation of our son as our sons fault, until a specific incident.)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)