Hypothetical YPT Question

[skeptic]

Once more we get to definitions of bullying and emotional abuse. What appears to be considered bullying today was not even close when I was a scout. What is considered emotional abuse is often nothing more than telling the truth about something and confronting an individual. To often today we seem to think that we are not supposed to correct or fail a scout because it might "hurt their feelings". Am not saying that is the case here, because we simply DO NOT really know.

 

Basement: I understand your distaste in general for everything beyond your own unit pretty much; but you really need to tone it down. Not all professionals are the way yours appear to be based on your reports. Many more ARE concerned about the youth in the program and work very hard to coordinate those needs with their jobs. Just my own opinion of course, but after 40+ years I have seen far more professionals on the good side of the coin than on the bad side; though the few I have seen on the bad side were really bad. Thanks for your work with your unit though.

[shortridge]

There had to have been contact between the council and the Scouts/parents - otherwise, how were the complaints filed?

 

It sounds like the SE took the information in the complaints, talked with the accused, decided he/she didn't need any more information, and made his/her decision. That's a pretty thin investigation, but it also strikes me as a reasonable approach.

 

That's doubly so if we're talking about things such as bullying and emotional abuse, which presumably were not witnessed by a third party. It sounds like a he-said, he-said situation.

 

But since all this is hypothetical and didn't happen, it doesn't really matter, right?

 

I'm guessing that none of us are going to give you the answer you seem to want, Taserdoc. We're not a jury, and even if we were, juries don't adjudicate situations this vague.

[KC9DDI]

Taser - It's sometimes frustrating to learn that the district and council professionals and volunteers don't really have any investigation or "enforcement" power over individual units or volunteer Scouters. There's a few exceptions - events occurring on council property, events involving camp staff - but other than that, most issues are left up to unit committees and COs for investigation and enforcement.

 

Bullying and emotional abuse? Between youth, or involving adults? If it's a case where an SM didn't adequately handle discipline - well, that's probably not a very good SM, but also something that the professional staff will just kick back to the unit committee and CO to resolve.

 

1 on 1 contact? Sure, a YP violation, but not illegal. Unless there was some serious allegation beyond that, it's something that will probably be kicked back to the unit level.

 

An SE really has no authority to investigate or interview anyone. So it may not be a "cover up" - just the CEO of a local small business recognizing that he or she has no authority or obligation to "investigate" further.

 

Just a suggestion - maybe provide the facts as you know them, rather than some very vague "hypotheticals" strung out over a series of short posts. You'd probably get many more useful responses that way.

[Eagle707]

I would, hypothetically, advise that such a person consult the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"All persons involved in Scouting shall report to local authorities any good faith suspicion or belief that any child is or has been physically or sexually abused, physically or emotionally neglected, exposed to any form of violence or threat, exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material. No person may abdicate this reporting responsibility to any other person.

 

Notify your Scout executive of this report, or of any violation of BSAs Youth Protection policies, so that he or she may take appropriate action for the safety of our Scouts, make appropriate notifications, and follow-up with investigating agencies."

 

Notice the last sentence in the first paragraph. If a Scouter hypothetically had information about abuse against a child (and emotional abuse is a crime), he or she would be required to report it. Period.

 

If you have information about abuse of youth, you need to speak to the police and to your Scout Executive. Now. Cultures of silence allow abuse to continue.

[Basementdweller]

Wow that's pretty thin with out witnessing it first hand.

 

I am guessing taser is probably the parent and we don't know if it is mom or dad, so we will not get an honest opinion or answer.

 

Did he get yelled at for ruining a tent, food, knife or fire safety?????

 

Was he doing something bone head????

 

 

We will never know.

[SeattlePioneer]

I don't think this is worthwhile to try and analyze "hypothetically."

 

Guessing and supposing facts, and then guessing and supposing about how people might react is not worthwhile.

[Scoutfish]

I get what you are asking Taserdoc, so I am going to answer the best I can. And my answers will be based on my position of leadership as a CubMaster.

 

What would I do if:

 

A) Nothing. As a leaderof a unit, Iam not in a position to handle or take care of this. This is a where as a leader, I should not be involved , lest you figure I handle complaints filed against me. (you see how that collapses the system right? )

 

B)At this point, I would talk with council as their lacsidasical attitude shows me they do not have the best interest of the scoutys, the reast of allleaders or BSA in mind. Just like a judge saying : "Your guilty! What is the charge?"

 

C) This really scares me. This shows revenge and contemps on the part of the leaders reminiscent of Hitler, Saddam, Qhadaffi, etc.... This leadership hasd to go- excluding it it was a false alligation by a scout who has previously and constantly slandered the people in question. Then you have what others have said - an axe to grind as well as personal vendettas.

 

D) Then I would do just that. Intergrity is by far more important than the public image in this case. My owm morals and simply following the scout law would demand that I do it.

 

I know you sound taken aback by the " Stirring the pot" comments, but units are made up of people. Real , average people of all walks of life. SCouts, their parents, leaders, Concil straff, etc.....

 

Some are the greatest people in the world and full of honor. Then on the other side of the spectrum, some see BSA as their persona tool to assist themn and olny then in whatever they do. Parents thing the unit is their for their child first and foremost.

 

Leaders will become leaders just to steer and mold thier childs program as they see fit. I have heard of CubMasters who's only concern was their own son's advancement.

 

Even got that from a person who wanted to be a jambo leader , but only to deal with their son.

 

Scouting has a bunch of fine people in it, but ther are others too. The ones who will step on anybody's toes, will ruin a geat unit and defriend everybody and anybody in their path to get what gthey want from scouting.

 

So yeah, "pots get stirred " in BSA just as much as dutch ovens get set in hot coals.

 

But even the smallest, tiniest details can and do change how you approach what has transpired.

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Twocubdad]

Wow! Godwin's Law in under seven hours. Must be a record for us!

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Nah, not Godwin's Law. It wasn't a reference to or me making a comparrison of a point of view or argument as being Nazi like,

 

It was a list of various dictators and the reference was to dictator like actions : "You accused me so now you will pay!"

 

 

Maybe I should have used the British supreme Ruler from V for Vendetta as my example of what I meant?

 

 

"Tonight, I will speak directly to these people and make the situation perfectly clear to them. The security of this nation depends on complete and total compliance. Tonight, any protestor, any instigator, or agitator will BE MADE EXAMPLE OF!

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think it was Godwin's law. Not a record for da forums by any means, though.

 

Taserdoc, about the only thing I could get from all that was that a couple of scouts thought a couple of leaders yelled at them too much. Maybe used bad words or had 'em go clean the latrine "or else." That seems to be about da threshold where yeh see "bullying" complaints against unit leaders. Either that, or telling a kid that he's not ready to advance to the next rank yet.

 

In court, there's this thing called "summary disposition". It happens in cases where there's no dispute about the facts of what happened, and so a decision can be rendered immediately just based on prevailing law. So my assumption would be that the complaint listed the facts, the scoutmasters when confronted did not dispute those facts, and the facts themselves did not warrant any public response.

 

For example "Mr. Jones told us we were a pair of sh--heads for skipping out on our cleanup duties at the dining hall. He was really angry and we were scared. Then he took away all of our evening privileges which meant I couldn't get Astronomy MB which I needed for Life rank, and when I complained he threatened to send me home. I felt bullied." And Mr. Jones says "Yep, I called them sh--heads. I shouldn't have done that, but they had been making life difficult for all of the adult leaders for the whole week, and I got impatient. Yep, I sent them to their tents for the evening, and for the next day unless they got up early to go down to the dining hall for an extra work detail. Yep, I also told Joey if he kept it up I would call his dad to come get him, and there wouldn't be a refund of his camp fees. I was never one on one with them: Mr. Felps, Mr. Smith, and Mrs. Bowdon all were there and witnessed the whole thing. I regret using the vulgar expression, but I believe I handled the rest of it appropriately."

 

Multiple adult witnesses. No dispute as to the relevant facts. Easy to decide this was not in fact bullying or any form of crime. No need to go further.

 

This stuff happens all the time.

 

If yeh want anything else from us, you're goin' to have to give us more to go on, eh? But from what you're sayin', there's no crime involved here, and it doesn't even seem like there's any violation of BSA guidelines. Just a Scoutmaster or two who might not have handled a situation the best way possible. We've all been there.

 

Beavah

 

[Basementdweller]

skeptic......Roundtable tuesday night..........

 

 

The DE stands up.....Says Membership numbers are down so WE need to recruit more boys, we are down 12%, The boy scout troops need to get into the middle schools before spring break and get something going..........Next words out his mouth are we are in last place for this years FOS campaign in all of the districts. We need to take to our families and make sure our units meet their goals.......

 

He then stepped away from the podium.

 

 

What else do you want me to say?????? What am I supposed to think?????? No mention of upcoming council events, no thank you's..........

 

So what does your DE do at roundtable??????

 

I am very active, I never met the previous scout executive.....He was here 4 years.........

 

 

So I am guessing your a professional??????

 

Far as liking folks outside my unit, I have numbers of SM's and CM's who are friends and we plan multiple unit activities with.... Even if the district wants their financial cut of the activities(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[skeptic]

Basement:

 

"So I am guessing your a professional?????? "

 

Considered it briefly in 1971; but found out what they really did, and how they had no personal life due to their ridiculous schedules. In my 35th year as SM of a troop; was an ASM in Germany in the mid 60's, RT commissioner staff, unit commissioner, member at large, jamboree 1st ASM in 1985 and staff in 2010, as well as going as junior leader in 1960. Woodbadge beaded in old course, but staffed first "new" course as TG, done numerous training courses on staff and been to training at PTC 5 times, as well as 2 treks there with my unit. Until recently we backpacked regularly, but am now trying to find younger adults to assure they continue, as I cannot do longer hikes anymore.

 

Our DE lets us run our RT for the most part, and simply gives us materials and info, while answering questions if needed. He is also in charge of one of our camps, while working as acting exec for two other districts. Yet, he never has refused to help me with issues, though sometimes it can be longer than "I" would like. ASE is similar, and overworked as well; yet he finds the time to deal with issues if needed. Our council has been understaffed for years now and barely is in the black, and was in the hole a couple of times. Have seen huge exec turnover, as they do not make enough to start to live where we are, and it can push their personal lives over the edge, and have seen it if they are dedicated. Many quit, just because of that.

 

Would agree we likely pay too much to any head council executive, including ours; and that annoys me. But, overall, have only had two exec's that I felt were terrible. As I said, you seem to have experienced the worst of the worst. My point is that you are using your personal experience to paint the entire profession; and, to me, that seems wrong and unfair to the many who spend most of their lives at relatively low pay, and terrible working hours, yet still get to camp, and lean over backwards to find solutions if they can.

 

Still, as must be obvious, I still stay on the unit level for the most part. And, I do get frustrated with certain elements of the National bureaucracy. But, having met a number of National level "volunteers", I think they try to keep it focused on the kids. PC pressure, and other things get in the way often; and, in my opinion, they do make some very wrong choices. Hopefully they will figure it out. Meantime, I will go back to my troop and work on getting us to our centennial in 10 years.

 

Keep up your own work focused in the right place. Just try to expand your view beyond the difficulties close to home, and do what you can to work with what you have. With luck, your executive board will figure things out and do what they need to do. If it is as bad as portrayed, someone with some time and pull in the volunteer level needs to spearhead a COR rebellion. It has happened many times over the years; and when it does, the council usually gets better.

 

Good luck.

[ScoutNut]

Based on the lack of more explicit "hypothetical" information, Beavah's summary sounds about right to me.

 

If you want more helpful answers you need to drop the "hypothetical" and give us the actual facts.

[Twocubdad]

Thank you, Beav. I've been trying to think of how to make that point in non-legal terms. 'Round here we call that the "Texas Defense" -- the sunnofagun needed killin'.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but another possibility would be that the actions alleged in the complaint, even if proven true, don't meet the standards for a violation.

 

[John-in-KC]

BD,

 

In the District I serve, our Professionals have a place where they are accessible to all, but they don't get public words unless there's something humongously important, that a Professional must say.

 

They get their chances to say things at Commish and District Committee meetings.