Paying to Staff

[Taserdoc]

Just curious if this is common or not. In my Council you not only have to pay to take a Council course, you have to pay to staff one as well. My Council charges roughly $100.00 per person to allow you the opportunity to staff events like Wood Badge or Powder Horn.

 

Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

[lone77wulf]

In the Wood Badge Administrative Manual it says:

 

"Staff costs are not to be passed on to the participants. Staff members must pay their own way. The staff fee should include all costs directly associated with the staff (meals, daily charges for insurance, beads, certificates,staff guide, etc.)"

 

Not sure about Powderhorn, but I'm guessing its the same.

[Eagle92]

Yes it's common.

 

I remember the days when staff went for free, except for the extras and if advanced training was involved, i.e. we sent youth to NAYLE or whatever it was called at the time at Philmont. But the JLT staff didn't. I take that back, we paid only for the weekend staff sessions. But once at camp, it camp out of the event budget.

 

I was told that UW got a little upset with this practice since other NFPOs do charge their volunteers who work events and who staff trainings. So it's in place now.

 

 

[moosetracker]

I heard it had to do with the fact it is a volunteer service. That getting free meals, T-shirts etc.. was considered a form of payment.

 

Our WB cost staff $85.. Even if $100, if you are being fed during your staff meetings as well as the 6 days on the course plus get a T-shirt (we don't do hats anymore, you might).. Anyway add it all up, you would pay that (or more) if you were not in the course and feeding yourself for that time.

[Abel Magwitch]

Perhaps the BSA could hire those putting on the training as paraprofessionals - like those who get paid to be unit leaders in some councils.

[Basementdweller]

You can say no.

 

More slave labor for the council.......Our woodbadge makes a 60% profit which goes directly into council coffers.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Welcome to the forum.

I was the Council Training Chairman when we changed from Staff not paying. I took a fair amount of heat because of the change.

I was OK with me paying my way and my fair share of real costs.

Others were a little upset.

As a unit leader I' always paid my own way and the thought of youth members in any way subsidizing me was and is one that I find to be just wrong.

So why should training be any different?

Different Councils have come up with different formulas of what the real cost is and isn't. Some seem to have just plucked a number out of thin air, that sounds kinda fair while others have tried to work out what the actual cost is.

The argument about it being an honor to be a staff member? Really is a load of hog wash. But the way I see it is that if I were at home I'd still have to pay for my meals and other stuff.

The budget for a Wood Badge course can be a tricky thing.

We once had a SE who passed on a lot of the costs from the camp that the course just didn't use, on the other side of the coin we had a SE who didn't charge the course any of the overhead costs from the camp.

The CD along with the Training Chair does need to sit down and go over the budget line by line with the SE or whoever is in charge, so as to avoid any ill feelings.

Sure if the course makes money the choice is to return it to the participants or have it go into the Council coffers.

Most times it goes to the Council. But again this needs to be discussed and worked out ahead of times.

I'm not a CPA. You might want to check and see what the tax implications are for paying and not paying. I think that I might be guilty of cheating a little as I tend to just lump all the checks that I write to the Council together and use them all as a donation.

I have been audited a few times but the IRS never said or asked about this.

Not paying might be seen as some sort of income or payment. But you need to talk to someone who really knows what they are talking about.

Ea.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

As a philosophical matter, I don't especially care one way or the other. Paying to cover the cost of my meals is not unreasonable. And if the organization wants to cover my cost as a volunteer that's fine too. In no way do I consider that any sort of payment.

 

It is really more of a practical issue -- where is the money coming from? If I'm building a program and can include the cost of feeding the staff without raising the fees to a point that they burden the participants, I would try to do so. But if the costs are getting jacked up to a point we're loosing participants over it, I'd ask the staff to help pay their own way. And in the spirit of volunteering for a good cause I, as a volunteer, would agree. What's the point of volunteering for a program which fails because no one can afford to participate?

 

I have much more of a problem with councils which look at every activity as a profit center. Sure, do some real cost accounting and cover the council's real cost, but some fo this is just out of control.

 

And here's a question, doee the staff advisor pay? Out of his/her own pocket or does the ocuncil pay? How about all the muckety-mucks who show up for dinner?

[SeattlePioneer]

I suppose it's a supply and demand issue. If a council needs the money and can get staffers to pay, they may well do so.

 

If they can't and it's a task they want done, they will offer subsidies of various kinds.

 

 

Those attending Cub Scout Daycamp staff training get the fee ($100 or more) paid by the council.

 

Perhaps one of the byproducts of over promoting Wood Badge is to gin up sufficient supply of staff so that the staff can be charged to participate.

[Basementdweller]

Have you seen the price of paper lately???? Wow.

 

 

That is why you need to pay to be on staff...

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So,the guys who are giving of their time to do the training are so much more valuable to the Council that these members of the Good Ole Boys Club, these important guys are exempt from paying their own way and the people taking the training are the ones, who due to their lack of training, must not only pay for themselves, they must also pay for the instructors who are being so kind that they are spending their valuable time with the great ignorant unwashed

 

Yeah, that sounds like the the proper culture we need to encourage

[OldGreyEagle]

So,the guys who are giving of their time to do the training are so much more valuable to the Council that these members of the Good Ole Boys Club, these important guys are exempt from paying their own way and the people taking the training are the ones, who due to their lack of training, must not only pay for themselves, they must also pay for the instructors who are being so kind that they are spending their valuable time with the great ignorant unwashed

 

Yeah, that sounds like the the proper culture we need to encourage

[Basementdweller]

OGE.....so wasn't there another thread about feeding volunteers on an Eagle project....How it was expected. Several comments along the line of if you don't feed me I won't be back.

 

 

 

So what makes Volunteering to staff a training course any different??????

 

If it is different please enlighten me as to how, my little pea brain just can't get around it.

 

Especially when councils charge big money for some of the training.

 

I pay for my food at the IOLS course, which I might add is more than the cost of the course for the participants.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[moosetracker]

OGE says - So,the guys who are giving of their time to do the training are so much more valuable to the Council that these members of the Good Ole Boys Club, these important guys are exempt from paying their own way and the people taking the training are the ones, who due to their lack of training, must not only pay for themselves, they must also pay for the instructors who are being so kind that they are spending their valuable time with the great ignorant unwashed

 

Who is that directed to? I don't see anyone on this thread beating their chest and demanding that they should get a free ride.. Just one confused OP, who was surprised by this and wanted to know if it was typical.. And alot of people stating this is the way it is, and we don't have a problem with it..

 

 

Now what SP eludes to, our camp also does.. For each Pack / Troop the number of adults needed to supervise that group goes free. Any adults over that count must pay. I am sure the cost of these Adults (at least meal wise) is rolled into the charge per boy for camp.. And I really don't see it as a Good ole boys thing.. It is just it is hard to not only get an adult to give a week of vacation to scouting rather then family, let alone ask them to pay $150 - $300 to do so.. They would end up with few units going because they couldn't get the Adult supervision..

 

That could be seen as a volunteer getting a kick-back? Or a neccesary expense in order to keep the camp up and running?

 

And I do not know if the muckity-mucks that go to the WB celebration dinners pay or not. (normally for us this is past course directors, some muckity-mucks but most your average volunteer who just had the personality and time to work through WB into that position..)

 

I do know that muckity-mucks from council staff will come to some district dinners and not pay.. (I have been told this by people in-the-know).. I guess we are just to be honored by their presence.. (Now here I would say is a kick-back..)

[KC9DDI]

I think there's valid arguments to be made for both sides of the issue.

 

From the perspective of a "customer", on the receiving end of a training program, I don't really care where the program fee goes. I look at the content and expected benefit of the program, and look at the fee for the program, and then decide if that's a good value for me. If it's a good value, I'll pay for it and attend. If not, I won't. Where the money goes isn't really a consideration for me. Just like purchasing any other product or service - If I don't see it as a good value, I just don't pay for it. I don't expect to dictate to my local grocery store, clothing store or restaurant what they may or may not do with the money the charge me, and I don't see why people feel it's acceptable to expect otherwise of Scouting.

 

But when I'm on the other side of the table, planning a district- or council-level program that needs staff, it's an issue that I think about a little more closely. Generally, I tend to err on the side of not asking staff to pay, but it depends heavily on the type of event.

 

For example, we did a one-day cub scout winter program last weekend. I believe we charged $5 per cub scout, and no charge for parents/leaders. It was a full 8 hour day of program, including lunch. We did not ask staff to pay, and I'm OK with that for the following reasons: 1) We didn't ask adult leaders from the cub packs to pay either. 2) In the months leading up to the event, I'm sure all of our staff spent more than $5 of their own money just in gas to drive to the planning meetings, not to mention any supplies that we all purchased and did not submit for reimbursement. 3) $5/person seems like a reasonable fee, and covered the cost of the program adequately. Any additional payment from staff would have been 100% profit for the council - and the council did not ask us to pay.

 

For a one-day adult training session though, where really the only expense is food, we charge about $2/person just to cover the food. In that case we generally will ask staff to chip in as well.

 

NYLT is a little bit different, in my opinion, as the majority of the staff are youth. We currently don't ask the staff (youth or adult) to pay, and I'm not sure how I would feel about asking the staff to pay, especially the youth staff. I look at the enormous expectations and responsibilities that we place on the youth staff, and the fantastic job that they do in carrying out those responsibilities - and I would have a very difficult time justifying asking them to pay to take on that enormous workload. Adult staff is a bit different. Even though we're not formally charged a fee, we do typically purchase our own food out of our own pockets, and also donate some of the supplies and equipment purchases for the event, by not submitting receipts for reimbursement.

 

Can't comment on Woodbadge or any of the more intense adult leader trainings. But my perspective is to generally subsidize the staff's cost, so that we can continue to recruit and retain the best quality staff.