Council/district restricting participation?

[moosetracker]

Yes.. But twoCubDad.. "They" are "You" the district is made up of one paid employee, and all else are volunteers of the district.. Some are people who have retired from their units.. But, many, many are SM, CM, and other members that are actively volunteering in a unit or units..

 

[Twocubdad]

Which put them up one paid employee over my troop!

 

All of which is beside the point. WHO is on the committee is unimportant. BD's issue is that his district committee is under the impression that BD works for them -- that he should be supporting their program and following their directives. NO! THEY work for Basementdweller. Their job is to go to him and ask, "how can we help you deliver a great program to your unit?"

 

But maybe BD is like me and just a crudmudgeonly old so-and-so and just wants to do things his own way. Fine! Then leave him the heck alone. If he wants to go out of council to a Webelos event, "have fun. Here's your tour plan." Don't create roadblocks for him. Shoot, they should be saying to themselves, "that's 16 kids who are going to camp that we don't have to worry about."

 

You run training, right moose? So if there's a unit on the edge of your district and it's much easier for them to train in the neighboring district, what's important here? That their leaders get trained to deliver good Scouting or that they stroke your ego and help build your empire?

 

(And I'm not saying your ego needs stroking or you're into empire building, but if you were.... You get my point.)

[Basementdweller]

Well 5 years ago my son entered scouting as a tiger.

 

It took a couple of years for me to find my feet. As a youth I just went along with the program, I had no clue about districts and such.

 

Mercifully, well maybe not, middle of the wolf year I attended some training in a neighboring District on ADD/ADHD and autism. What an eye opener, They had Activities, a lot of cub activities.

 

So I asked our GOBC at roundtable why we didn't have any cub activities. They replied there was no Cub activities chairman. Next month I told them I would do it.......Then began the series of road blocks......First well you can't run cub programs with out having taken wood badge......then the whole you can't run an unofficial/official district pinewood derby and the emails saying that it was not a sanction event.

 

Well I took woodbadge, jumped thru the GOBC's extra hoops. The District commisioner fired everyone else in the district. Ending the GOBC's rein.

 

I thought my original meeting was to join the activities committee for the cubs. I very quickly learned that old GOBC was replaced by a new one.

 

 

This quest simply began as an attempt to put on programs for my son and I to participate in. Well my son has been in troop for 18 months so our opportunity was missed.

 

My taking the Pack out of council and district is nothing more that seeking programing for my scouts. No political moves or statements involved, We have ZERO cub programing in our district so they cannot complain about that.

 

Our pack has grown from less than 10 scouts to nearly 100 in three years. We now have 25 transfers from neighboring Packs. We have 100 scouts and familys going to a halloween camp this weekend.

 

why do they come? The camping, the outings, the programing, the field trips.....Every year we get on our local network news during station visits or meteorologist visits. It is a shame that we need to drive hours, sometimes multiple hours to events because our district does not put on things more locally.

 

[Eagle92]

Maybe I'm overly simplistic? Maybe I'm just from a unit that was youth led, and if the Scouts didn't want to got to local events, we didn't go, so I am very pro youth led? Maybe that old "representing the group" session of BA22 and JLT hit a cord with me? Or maybe it's the mentors I had?

 

But I not only agree with 2Cub, I think I'm expanding his premise.

 

Every single leader, unit and non-unit, needs to support the wants, needs, and desires of the scouts in their charge. ( bold for emphasis, not shouting.)

 

Units need to provide the best possible program to their Scouts. And program meets those wants, needs, and desires of the members in them.

 

Districts need to provide the best possible resources and program to the units, so that all scouts in the district have the same set of opportunities.

 

Ditto councils, and to a lesser extent, regional and national.(regional and national provide mostly resources, but a few program opportunities as well.)

 

It is sad that a district committee is doing this to the scouts in a unit. While I understand being upset when units do not take advantage of district opportunities, I am on the district committee after all, my concerns would be "why," and "how can we make it better," or "What can we do to improve the event?" Once we started doing that with CSDC, we are growing by leaps and bounds.

 

As for unit leaders taking over events, mixed emotions. IF, and I am stressing the IF, you have the time, and it will not adverserly affect the scouts you are directly responible for, then by all means help. But if it will hurt them, no.

 

Hardest thing I've been saying lately is "No." I was on the district level before being a DL, and I get asked to help out alot. My den is the primary responsibility.

[Basementdweller]

There are two separate discussions going on here......Boy Scouting vs Cub Scouting.

 

One annual District camporee is great by me. They have three a year and with other troop commitments that would suck up more than half of our programing year.

 

Cubs do not lead themselves.

 

One troop in our District has 29 ASM's and they have next to zero participation at the district level. I know one of the District folks approached the SM and CC for the troop and asked why they don't have better adult participation at the district level.....they are doing the same thing I am doing......district program is so horrible they do their own thing.

 

[moosetracker]

TwoCub - Our district committee, optimally we would prefer an active committee member, or an ASM of a troop that overflows with ASMs to be the person of the unit to help out with district, or the ones retiring from unit service.. We prefer our CM/SM & CC's to not spread themselves too thin.. But, when suggested this was our goal, you could feel that it was taken by the SM/CC on our board as a slap in the face, rather then a wish they have some family time, and do not burn out on this scouting thing.. So it is not pushed..

 

Either way, be it SM/CM, active committee member our us retired from the unit.. The district committee is still just a bunch of volunteers, spread too thin and looking for help.. The paid Exec, really isn't a part of the District committee, but a part of the Key 3 that channel what the DC does..

 

I know when my husband had nothing to do in a troop, his thought was to go to district committee and help there.. The Unit would have nothing of it.. "We, will find you something to do!!, Don't go to District Committee!!!" "Why?? Why is their an us .vs. them? It would not hurt for a unit with an abundance of adult volunteers to try to channel them to the District to help with providing a good program for their scouts at that level..

 

Now in Basement's case, I understand the us .vs. them mentality.. The District is creating it.. But for normal reasonable Districts I do not.. You are only hurting your own program, by not channeling the over abundance of help where it could be useful..

 

As for my training.. I will admit some mixed feelings.. Recently I sent out a list of where training could be had at other districts, in an interest of just getting out there and getting trained.. But, I did have an occassion this Fall where I rationalized I was holding back for the good of the people in my District, but there was a little bit of feeling they were messing with my turf..

 

I set up for a Fall IOLS, normal course 2 days.. The Council then decided to hold a Fall IOLS at the Jamboree (which was a 1 day event).. After forbidding me to run a faster course for expirenced Scouters only.. The Jamboree was in my district and only 2 weeks after mine.. It seemed to me it would be a circus also with all the other interuptions of the traffic and crowds and what not of a normal Jamboree.. Although it would be open to all, I only saw it as a benefit for the experienced scouter.. But, then I could see it was not jelling or forming or being organized.. So I waited until I had official word that it was organized, which it never was and was canceled, 2 days after my course completed.. Had I not waited, some may have not attended my course in order to go to that course, and have been out-of-luck.. So my suspicions panned out.. But, there was some ruffled feathers about them deciding I could not run something for experienced scouters that they then (I think in the very meeting I was denied) were going to roll out for inexperienced & experienced both..).. So I am not sure my decision was totally Altruistic..

 

I don't begrudge my district going to other districts for training.. But when I organize an event, and have people spend alot of time organizeing for an event, I always fear a low turnout, and disappointing my trainers who have worked hard to make the training worthwhile.. I know I have a responsibility to the units in my district, but I also feel a responsibility to my trainers..

 

We have a Specifics training coming up.. I have good enrollment for the Boy Scouts that is still not on-line, but I worry about the enrollement for cub scouts.. We will run regardless. But, to run that requires about 5 or 6 trainers giving up their time to help.. Maybe we will get a rush enrollment this week, or alot of walk-ins.. If not, I will need to decide if this will be our last time, or if we start merging with a few neighboring districts for a combined enrollment.

[Eagle92]

Base,

 

If I am the one mixing the two programs, please bear with me. Even going into my 3rd year as a CS leader, I still have a lot of the BS leader in me While I know the Cubs cannot lead themselves, I ask them for their opinions. I want to know what they liked, disliked, and what they want to see at events I work on. Sometimes the wants list are doable, sometimes it takes a bit of planning, and other times, well the Cubs can be very creative

 

Also we have 2 packs that do their own thing, with little to no district interaction. 1 is the LDS pack, so we have come to expect that. The other is a very affluent pack, and can do their own thing.

[qwazse]

MT - I have heard similar frustration among trainers in my district. Heck my youth felt it because two of them held a council-wide ILSC course and only three students showed up -- from a neighboring council!

 

The harsh reality is that for most of us time is a rare commodity, and location isn't. So, I think districts should shamelessly promote courses council/area wide because a training day may work for only 5 people in a district, but but might work for 2 people in each of 10 neighboring districts. If this is the case for 3 or 4 training days throughout your region you'll get a lot of people trained.

 

The problem then becomes how do you herd people to these various training opportunities without them getting so many announcements they ignore them all and miss out on then one day that they *could* attend?

[CalicoPenn]

Ignore them - and stop going to their meetings. There are probably units out there in your district that no one ever sees at district events now. Become one of them. Then do whatever you want. Deal just with the Council office. If someone from the district comes to you with a pre-set FOS goal, tear it up, laugh in their face, and tell them to scram. Tell the District Executive you will do your own FOS presentation in your own time and if you can get each family to donate just $2 each, then the Council better be happy to get even that much. If someone from district comes by to give you grief, laugh in their face and tell them to scram. If a commissioner comes by without an express invitation, tell them to scram. Have the COR hand deliver the re-chartering package to the council office - if anyone gives him/her grief, ask them if they really want to lose an active unit of 100+ scouts.

 

If the CO's and COR's in a district or council ever organized and acted together, the Scout Executive and Council President would be shaking in their boots. What do you think would happen if a significant majority of CO's told the Scout Executive the District Committee/District Executive had to go or they were dropping their charters.

[Shilue]

Wow, a lot of anger towards the District here. And from the sounds of it, some of it is quite justified.

 

I am the District Commissioner for my district, and we are fortunate to have a good District Committee that works with the units. I tell my Unit Commissioners, as well as the unit leaders in our district, that the Commissioners and the Committee are here to serve THEM, not the other way around. My Commissioners don't go in telling people how to run their unit unless asked. If they did, they wouldn't be Commissioners for long.

 

My view of the council is an inverted pyramid. The small portion, resting on the ground, is the paid staff. They support the slightly larger portion, which is the district, and the district, in turn, supports the largest section which is now at the top, the units.

 

The ultimate purpose of Scouting is to provide a quality program for the youth. Period. That's it. There's no prize for having the most youth in a unit, there's no prize for having the most attendance at a Cuboree or a district camporee. The youth are the MOST important thing, and all efforts should be focused there.

 

Fortunately, we don't have ego-driven, Good Ole Boys on the District Committee. If we did, I'd be doing my best to break it up. When I came on as DC, one thing that I promptly changed was allowing Unit Commissioners to be UCs for their units. A previous DE had decided that it was ok to do so, because of people's valuable time. I tossed that out the window. I sat down with my DE and went over all the units in the district, figured out who needed help the most, and assigned my UCs that way. That's the way it needs to be done. Most of the units that my UCs come from are doing fine. And if a unit is doing fine, it doesn't need a UC as badly as Pack XXX which is struggling.

 

I'm sorry to hear that some of you are turned off by your District Committee, and I'm sorry that some of those District people don't get it. Personally, if units in our district are not participating in District activities, I want to go to those unit leaders and find out how we are failing them and fix it. A District exists to serve it's units. Those of us on the District Committee work for the units, not the other way around.

[Abel Magwitch]

There are similar posts on this forum where a Troop is restricted where they can camp. I remember one Scouter who has posted on the forums called her SE a bully. Why? Because he was threatening not to approve tour permits because the unit did not participate in popcorn sales. They also wanted to go out of council for summer camp, but the threat was made that a tour permit would be denied.

 

So yes, it is unfortunate, but there are folks in the Scouting world who abuse their power to increase membership numbers; get their criticals done; forge names on quality unit awards to make quality district or council; demand additional training beyond what is necessary or the unit will not be allowed to recharter; whatever is necessary to get that promotion.

 

And I have had plenty of experience with a good ole boy volunteer district and council leadership who will do whatever they are told by their DE, DD and SE. And those who play their game get rewarded with new knots to wear.

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Doc Meyer]

Allegedly trained leaders knowingly flaunt the camping guidelines, and then wonder why the council gives them so much grief. Stunning. Your actions undermine everyone who tries to do things the right way.

 

And before you tell more sad stories about how your district or council stinks, I stand by my comments from several months ago that there is likely more to the stories than you'll ever tell here.

[Scoutfish]

" Allegedly trained leaders knowingly flaunt the camping guidelines, and then wonder why the council gives them so much grief. Stunning. Your actions undermine everyone who tries to do things the right way.

 

And before you tell more sad stories about how your district or council stinks, I stand by my comments from several months ago that there is likely more to the stories than you'll ever tell here."

 

Wow, before YOU tell any more, I think we know all we need to about you.

 

You took different members posts and contributed them all to one person? Then automatically assume the one pewrson is completely at fault.

 

How arrogant!

[Oak Tree]

When we file a tour permit, I figure it's to tell the council what we're doing. I'm not looking to them to approve anything. As it happens in our council, the council office seems to have the same opinion.

 

If they started giving me grief or trying to "disapprove" my plans, I think I'd just quit submitting them. We'd follow the rules and camp wherever our unit decided was appropriate, just the way we do now. The "council-approved location" thing is a complete joke - if you verify that the site meets the mandatory items on http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/13-508.pdf, you should be good. And not even all of our state parks meet all of these requirements (no more than 300 feet from a toilet), but we're not going to use that technicality to invalidate possible sites. The real joke part is the idea that council is inspecting and approving these locations on a regular basis. Hah!

 

The council doesn't need to approve your plan anyway. From the national site: The local council reviews the plans but does not "approve" them.

 

I'm with Basement - are they really going to pull your charter for going camping?

[BadenP]

 

With my experience as a former DE, SM, VA and currently a Venturing CC/COR. I can tell you that district programs are NOT supposed to interfer with individual unit programs but provide additional opportuntities for training and activities, if the unit so desires, to participate in. A DE or even an SE does NOT have the authority to tell any unit they can not participate in another district or council event.

 

The scouters firstmost and only true obligation is to their unit.