Council/district restricting participation?

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

Spun off from another thread...

 

>> Had my meeting with the district committee last night.......

>> I am not allowed to take the Pack out of District or out of council

>> to events any more.

 

WUH? Can they do that? I suspect not. You are an entity under your chartered org and as such you are entitled to go wherever your chartered org sees fit. Sounds to me like district/council is floundering and rather than fix a failing program, they want to mandate continued attendance.

 

I would be angry beyond speech. Good luck with this!

[moosetracker]

I don't know about day trips. Overnight pack camping though says you must go with a council approved list of sites..

 

Now within Council, it would be hard for them to put the only approved campsites for cubbies all within your district and your district only.. But they could not approve any camping sites that are outside of the council boarders..

 

The only other thing I know they can do is cancel your charter for not complying.. But, I would think they would have to provide good reason for canceling it.. And I would think like other things you would have some system of appeals higher then your council, all the way to national.. Someone may know that better then I..

 

You camping in locations not approved by Council they may have a case. Even if your council has changed the Tour Plan back to being similar to a Tour Permit where you have to file for everything.. I doubt if it was appealed to a board higher then your council, they can make a case for using the Tour Plan to bend units to their will.. And your charter is being denied because you wont bend..

 

If you are following National guidelines, I don't think the council defined rules would apply..

 

But, that means making sure you do have a higher court to appeal to if they take that road, and being strong enough to ride the waves of your charter possibly being revoked so that you can appeal to the higher powers that be for a verdict.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

Excellent point on camping at council approved destinations. However, I suspect council would be hard pressed to justify why a pack destination is not accepted if:

1) The destination is accepted and used by scouts in other districts/councils; and

2) The destination meets the same acceptance criteria used to measure allowed destinations within council boundaries.

 

[Twocubdad]

Are you talking about camping at Uncle Joe's farm which happens to be geographically out of the area, or are you attending camporees and other Scout functions out of council?

 

Either way, "pound sand" is likely the appropriate response.

[pchadbo]

Boy I hope this doesn't catch on: our state Jamboree was last weekend sponsored by our district but actually held in another. Two of our pack's big trips each year (sponsored by the council) are to locations in other councils, and Cub camping for the state is in another District.

[Eagle92]

As I stated in the original thread, I have never, ever, in the 19 years as a professional or volunteer have heard of such garbage.

 

Yes council can limit your selection of campsites to those preapproved, if your council even has a list. But to say you cannot go out of district or council?

 

Here is what I would do FWIW.

 

1) have a friendly cup of coffee withthe foks saying this and ask to see where that is written.

 

2) remind them that they are not providing an adequate program per the charter agreement.

 

3) If the above doesn't work, then have the CC, or better yet the COR write a nice letter to them stating that they are nto living up to their agreement, and that they are no longer invited to do FOS campaigns at BnG.

 

4) If 3 doesn't work, have the COR consider mailing the SE, stating the problem, and how they think that BSA might not be the best possible program for them with the current restrictions,and that the CO is considering not rechartering.

 

This is a bunch of garbage.

[moosetracker]

TwoCubDad - in boys scouts the troop patrol can camp wherever.. "Pound sand".. In cubscouts, they must only camp on Council approved sites, and those sites need certain "family friendly" items like toilets and running water and I don't know what else, but there is a list..

 

Therefore, while the boyscout troop can camp on Uncle Joes farm.. The cub scout Pack may not unless Uncle Joe fixes up the place to meet with the list, and has someone come out to approve it.

 

OEAE.. You are right about the other Council approval.. You would still need to play the game of asking your council to approve the site and allowing them to refuse it though.

[The Blancmange]

>>>>But they could not approve any camping sites that are outside of the council boarders..

[The Blancmange]

The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. How does a district committee have any say in what a unit does with its own program? If I send in a registration form to another district's or council's event, it is up to that council or district if they want to accept it or not. Is this committee somehow convincing other districts to go along with their plan?

 

As mentioned, the only stumbling block is a tour plan if your council goes beyond the national requirements and requires them for trips within the council (if going to another district within the council), or if they have convinced the council pros (or whoever approves your tour plans) to go along as well.

 

On a side note, and please don't take this the wrong way, but based on Basementdweller's descriptions of the demographics of the families in his pack, I doubt the threat to not allow an FOS presentation really carries much weight.

 

I just see this "mandate" as very hollow.

[Basementdweller]

Oh they can't do it.

 

I know it, the only thing they can do is not approve my tour plans.

 

they are mad, because they Blocked my Webelos den from attending our districts webelos woods by requiring a parent for each boy. I found another one out of council that would take my boys with a 4-1 ratio of scouts to adults.

 

they are mad we go out of council to webelos resident camp. Mad because we are not posting our popcorn sales to the district website.

 

 

So the repercussions of no tour plan is??????????????

 

I am guessing we have a case of the New good old boys club.

 

 

I really don't care what they say, This is my last interaction with them. I tried a couple of years ago and the results were bad, I am done now.

 

The meeting was supposed to be about putting on some district wide cub events. I had some thoughts, and it turned into the District inquisition.

 

I just hope this does not impact my son, most of these guys are also on the district advancement committee.

 

The FOS threat is pretty hollow, we generally only raise a couple of hundred dollars. But it is important to THEM to have 100% participation

(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Eagle92]

Blanc,

 

Correct on FOS, I wasn't thinking fully. This really ticked me off, and I went into automode.

 

Now I do not know all the ins and outs of the council approved CS camping list, i.e. if councils can only approve places in council or not. Currently my council doesn't have list, but we are working on it in conjunction with the local OA lodge. But why would a council limit the opprotunity of Cubs? Why would a person need to get permission to go camping at a non-scout campsite in a another council's territory IF the home council approves?

 

As for who approves the tour permits, I'm willing to bet an overworked office staffer does it, checks to make sure everythign is compliant, and rubber stamps it.

[Basementdweller]

Ya know moose if they want to revoke the packs charter for taking the boys camping out of council...... they can do it.

 

But then I would take the entire story to the media.

 

I can see the by line now....."Boy Scout group disbanded for going camping".

 

 

I have not violated any rules, have all the training including some that was added by the district. Filed the right paper work.

 

They don't like that I don't need their program.

[moosetracker]

Basement - they are mad, because they Blocked my Webelos den from attending our districts webelos woods by requiring a parent for each boy.

 

Now I am confused.. They are blocking you from going outside your district to other events, but won't let you attend the events in your own district either???

 

Pack camping is more a one-to-one, with an occasional assignment of a boy to someone other then the family.. But Webloes woods is suppose to be Summer camp.. Our Council has a 5:1 ratio, but I guess some councils differ.. But 1:1?? I would have had them prove that this was a council rule for all Packs, then I would sit back and see how many cubbers went to their camp that summer..

 

Tour Plans - No one has said if there is an appeal system if your charter is revoked.. But if there is, then I would say, you keep proof that you sent in the tour Plan, and if rejected ask them for a reason why in writing, fix up anything that is a ligitimate beef.. and file for record anything that is not.. Then go to your event..

 

If your charter is revoke on you not fileing your tour plans I would pull out all the documentation on the rejected tour plans you filed with nit witty excuses as to why they are rejected.. (Would be nice if you could compare notes with another Pack or two to see if they are asked to comply with the nit witty requirements, or if they are made-up requirements for your pack alone..

 

That is only if you know if it came to that you could appeal to a more rational committee of people..

[moosetracker]

We crossed posts.. True.. I just posted and thought about the media, but was thinking about it now, and thought that would only provoke them further.. But, yes, if they revoked your charter, it would make a great story..

 

Make sure you have them film a bunch of little cub scouts with sad puppy dog eyes.

[BS-87]

They don't like that you're combative about program.

 

They're kind of stupid. If I were on your District's Committee, the first thing I'd do upon hearing your ideas and grievances for Cub Scout programs is ask you to run the next event.

 

This is in part to make sure you have a greater appreciation for the restrictions of the rules and why they're in place, but it's also highly likely that you'd run a much better program than the district has had in the past because you have a passion to make it enjoyable.

 

I believe that's what we did in one case last year in our district. A cubmaster didn't like how we did a program, we made him chair of the program, the result is that he loves the program and last year the boys had a spectacular time as a direct result of the improvements/new ideas.

 

I'd say you're probably rubbing them the wrong way and that friction is creating the whole problem. However, I'm positive that they're morons for not empowering you instead of blaming you and trying to put silly restrictions on you.