Does COR HAVE to be a member of the Chartering Organization?

[jhankins]

I don't see what the stink is. If a parent doesn't like the choice of the scoutmaster, they can take it up with the Chartering Organization. If they still don't like it, oh well.

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

These are simple calls.

 

The IH contacts the parent DC and informs that person that they are no longer welcome in the Troop, and neither are his/her sons.

 

The IH contacts the SE and tells the SE that the appointed COR is the COR.

 

The IH tells the SE that unless the Scoutmaster doesn't pass the background check, and Council can prove it, that the IH expects that the Scoutmaster's application will be approved.

 

The IH informs the SE that s/he has removed the parent DC and sons from the Troop.

 

The IH informs the SE that if that's a problem, the Chartering Organization will no longer sponsor Troop XXX, and that they will be encouraging all of their member businesses not to give money or goods to the Boy Scouts.

[ScoutNut]

Councils have NO INPUT into who a CO appoints as COR.

 

Councils have NO INPUT into who the members of a unit's Committee are.

 

If the "new" SM is already a registered member of BSA, your Council has NO SAY as to what position, in what unit, he can, or cannot hold (unless he is trying to dual register as say a SM, and CC).

 

I would recommend that the COR of the Troop talks to the head of the Troop's Charter Organization. Their IH needs to get off their duff, stand up for their choice of COR, and call the SE.

 

You, as another COR in the District, should also call the SE and express your disgust at what the DE, and the DC (is he THE District Commissioner, or just a Commissioner in the District?), are trying to pull here.

 

Does the SE REALLY want the Council to be responsible for appointing all unit volunteers? Is he prepared to contact references on every application? Is he really prepared to tell the LDS Church that it will be the SE, and not the Bishop, who appoints all of their leaders from now on?

 

Does your SE REALLY want to open that Pandora's Box of problems with the Council's Chartered Partners?

 

That is a great way to loose both volunteers, units, and Charter Organizations.

[SeattlePioneer]

I few weeks ago I started a thread asking if boys or parents created more trouble in Scout units.

 

 

Here is yet more evidence of why parents won that issue hands down!

 

 

While booting out the complaining parents their boys would be very tempting, I would recommend against it unless there are further problems. A parent with a grievance who pursues it in a reasonable way is entitled to do so in my opinion, and going to the Scout office qualifies as a reasonable way to complain in my book.

 

We need to look for ways to get along and live together, not for opportunities to muscle each other.

 

Of course they may quit, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[5yearscouter]

The DC is really he DC

and he has a voice of persuasion,

having worked in radio will do that for a person I guess.

He can be a smooth talker

 

and he's talked his way into getting a few people on his side at district/council level it appears. I tried to warn the CC/COR of the troop to contact the DE and Council themselves ahead of time, but they thought once the TC voted AGAIN to retain said person as scoutmaster, that as they say would have been that. So I will imagine that DE and anyone at council were blindsided by this and perhaps they may be convinced that the DC is trying to help out the unit in some way with this finangling.

 

I am at a loss why the DE who seems to have his head screwed on straight would let this get this far,

unless he too has been bypassed and the DC is complaining to a higher Scout Exec at council.

 

I will guess that this may be a situation of the DC finding 3 people to complain to council and that being enough for council to think there may be something to be said for these accusations and trying to blacklist the said scoutmaster.

 

Unfortunately IH is MIA, they've moved their headquarters and even did some restructuring in there-- it's a business that while they give some $, use of a building and a name to the Troop, they don't have anyone that really wants to deal with these kinds of issues. They will be contacted, they will probably complain and want to drop the charter if it becomes too much of a headache. That's why they appointed the COR, so they don't have to deal with it.

 

troop has been looking for a new Chartered Org since the business had financial difficulties, that may have to happen faster than they'd like.

 

Guess I should spin off,

how careful should scouters and scoutmasters have to be about what they talk about as adults online in a political forum where scouts are not present? This person did not have scouts as facebook friends, and his page is not public, scouts do not have access. DC asked to be his friend on facebook a long time ago, and when the choice of scoutmaster didn't go the way he wanted, only after it was announced to the boys and adults did he go search out things he thought was not ok for a scoutmaster to say and copy and pasted the items out of context.

 

[Eagle92]

As a former pro THE COUNCIL CANNOT REMOVE A PERSON FROM A POSITION UNLESS THERE IS A VIOLATION OF YOUTH PROTECTION. (caps and bold for emphasis)

 

I can tell you this from first hand experience as the council I worked for DID want a CM removed, but couldn't do it. It was a hands off CO, and really had nothing to do with the pack. IH/COR, who was also an ASM with the affiliated troop (don't ask, I know , I know) did not want to get involved with the pack, despite the fact the pack would lose all recruited Cubs and leaders but the CM and family, the CM was pushing for the troop to accept 9 y.o. son with AOL (don't ask, this was pre SCOUTNET, and NO he did not get into any troop until a year later when he turned 10.5) etc etc. IH/COR didn't want to get involved in getting a new CM, but did want the council to do something about pack so that the troop would get new members from the Webelos. FD and I met with IH/COR and told him we could nto do anything, only he could.

 

The only ways that I know of that a council can reject a leader is #1 fail the background check, #2 they don't do Youth Protection, and #3 they revoke the leader's membership in Scouting completely, usually for YP reasons, but there can be others.

 

So IF the IH is happy with the COR, or any leader for that matter, the council can NOT remove the person, except as stated above.

[5yearscouter]

yeah Eagle I really can't figure it out.

It's not ever been claimed to be a youth protection issue.

 

I'm worried that it's somehow going to get escalated to a remove the membership of the scoutmaster elect for what amounts to unsubstantiated slander against his character.

 

I'm trying to wrap my mind around why noone at council should be buying into this witch hunt or vendetta, but they are. Of course there is always more to a story, there could be evidence that the troop committee was not provided--but why keep that kind of info a secret when it would quiet down all the unrest if this guy were that bad? At least tell the committee chair or COR what is so horrible in summary so they can quit things down in the committee. even a council is investigating suspicious activity and you need to choose a different scoutmaster until this is resolved would be better for the unit than what has been done/said so far.

 

I've talked to the COR (over an hour on the phone today, he's ready to leave scouting and take his son with him--life scout who is currently SPL of the troop, newly elected last week). I'm trying to convince him to stay in his position, give him proof that he doesn't have to be a member of the chartered org, and encourage he and CC to appoint an interim scoutmaster from one of the existing remaining assistant scoutmasters and send the BIG scoutmaster selection committee back to the drawing board.

 

Existing scoutmaster is trying to arrange a meeting at council with accused scoutmaster elect and "powers that be." Accused scoutmaster is ready to leave the troop so things can calm down for the boys, but will consider filing a legal slander lawsuit againt the DC. He'd take his Eagle son and 1st class son with him if he leaves the troop.

 

Maybe council is worried that this smooth talking guy is really going to try to take it to the media--not that it's newsworthy in any way--except as an op ed piece about should scoutmasters be able to be politically opinionated? Interestingly enough the 2nd choice for scoutmaster has said some interesting things in front of the boys that were political statements, but everyone chalks it up to him being ex-military gung ho. Probably the two scoutmaster choices think a lot alike regarding scouting and politics, but one keeps it on the internet and one in front of the boys. unfortunately, the one on the internet you can copy and paste and take the words out of context. Note the discussions centered around building the muslim center at ground zero and that was many months ago when alot of people were really upset about that and making some interesting comments, including IIRC on this board.

 

Blah!

 

Thanks for letting me type this out at you guys.

I should probably edit any particulars that could maybe in some way be identifying. just so I'm not accused of stirring the pot.(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

[jhankins]

Encourage the COR to take the bull by the horns. He's the final authority on this issue. If the mom doesn't like the choice in Scoutmaster, he can hand over her son's records and say "thanks for all you've done, there's the door."

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Again - Have YOU, as a COR in the District, called your Council SE to make your unhappiness over this mess known?

 

YOU, as a COR, are a voting member of your District Committee, and this affects you, your CO's unit, and your CO.

 

CALL YOUR COUNCIL SCOUT EXECUTIVE ASAP!

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

Good heavens.

 

All this from a DC? Where is the Council Commish, pray tell? Or do you mean District Chair instead of District Commish?

 

Every now and then yeh get some fellow who just wants to hijack da process. Best usually to have someone pull him aside and explain that he's welcome to stay and politely do his job, or exit through the door, or exit through the window.

 

I like ScoutNut's response, eh? You're a council member as COR. Call the SE and share your concern about the behavior of da DE. Then call the Council Commissioner and Council President and express your same concern about da behavior of the DC. If yeh don't get satisfactory responses, call the other CORs in your district and show up at the next district committee meeting and introduce a motion to remove the fellow from his position. Sometimes yeh just have to let folks know there's another side and they're willin' to make as big a stink as the first loudmouth, eh? Lots of folks are conflict adverse, and will go along with somethin' improper just to avoid the conflict, so long as there's no alternate voice. When conflict is inevitable one way or da other, then they think about it and do the right thing.

 

Whether it's a district chair or district commish, their role is to support and help the unit's leaders, not choose 'em or try to run da unit.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Oak Tree]

Eagle92,

 

One other way that council has to "remove" a volunteer is to drop the charter of the unit - or to threaten the CO that if the CO doesn't remove the volunteer from the position, then they would drop the charter.

 

Sure, dropping a charter would be a giant pain in practice, but it's an easy discussion to have with a COR or IH who might cave to that pressure.

[5yearscouter]

Well I was asked by the troop COR to sit tight until thursday until they'd have a big meeting and let me know what happens next between them and council reps.

 

So I wait.

 

I should to invite Scout exec to blue and gold but I'm sitting on that too.

 

At the moment the best option is to force "them" to admit that there is no way to be a member of a company, the rules don't say you have to be an employee, but you can certainly be a member of that company's scout support committee and be chosen as COR to represent that company as a Chartering organization. so the COR retains his job.

 

 

Then troop committee meeting on Monday they should choose an interim scoutmaster from existing assistant scoutmasters, or from other available candidates to serve until the witchhunt is over.

 

of course right now troop COR wants to step down and not deal with the council. Chartering org doesn't want to deal with it either, they want committee to recommend new COR. COR is a good bet for interim scoutmaster (he's trained for it and said he would do that job if he didn't have to deal with council and if the boys want him.) so then they still end up needing a new COR.

 

it looks like a really awkward round of musical chairs at the moment.

 

The boys are going to be disappointed. they cheered so loudly when the new scoutmaster [elect] was announced. I really don't think they are going to get this nice man as their scoutmaster.

 

If council thinks it should not recharter our troop over this kind of thing,

they are insane.

to lose a troop continuously chartered for 85 years??

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Do you understand that if you contact the SE NOW, as a COR, and confront him about what is going on, there is a very good chance of stopping this idiocy before it even goes into the "big meeting", and gets out of hand?

 

Why is it that you do not want to do that?

 

Why does the other COR not want to contact the SE?

 

If you are not willing to stand up, and use your voice as a COR, and voting member of the District, and Council, Committees, then you can not simply blame your council for whatever stupid stuff the DE, and DC, end up doing at their "big meeting".

 

 

[5yearscouter]

yes, storming the council office is a possiblity on my schedule for friday. This is Wednesday night, tomorrow is Thursday. I did not know more than rumors before Tuesday.

 

District and Council Execs are not answering phones about this issue right now. My complaints have been sent to them by email Tuesday.

 

the big meeting is within the troop as each party that has been notified shares what info they've been given by council and make sure they all have the same information and are not missing something.

 

This will include existing scoutmaster, CC, COR, IH(I think, not sure), and the scoutmaster elect. They are going to try to come to a calm consensus of what their next step is going to be for the boys, for new scoutmaster and for dealing with council, then they will bring this to troop committee--with all of them on the same page. I'm not sure if the UC will be in that meeting but he should be.

 

Scoutmaster elect is trying to appeal the "decision" but has been told there is no appeal. That sounds pretty final.

 

COR's at this point that I've talked to would request that he at least be allowed to know the claims against him and counter the claims with factual data and allow others to vouch for his character if it's "just" a smear campaign.

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

"how careful should scouters and scoutmasters have to be about what they talk about as adults online in a political forum where scouts are not present? This person did not have scouts as facebook friends, and his page is not public, scouts do not have access. DC asked to be his friend on facebook a long time ago, and when the choice of scoutmaster didn't go the way he wanted, only after it was announced to the boys and adults did he go search out things he thought was not ok for a scoutmaster to say and copy and pasted the items out of context."

 

The simplest rule is usually the best: Don't say anything online that you wouldn't say in a public square, to your religious leader or in front of your mother. Follow that and you won't go wrong.

 

========

 

"Maybe council is worried that this smooth talking guy is really going to try to take it to the media--not that it's newsworthy in any way--except as an op ed piece about should scoutmasters be able to be politically opinionated? ... Note the discussions centered around building the muslim center at ground zero ... "

 

Depending on what was said, it certainly could be newsworthy.

 

JUST AS A HYPOTHETICAL - if the man wrote "All Muslims should rot in hell," or a similar inflammatory/ bigoted/ racist/ whatever statement, and if the complaining DC was willing to put his name to the complaint, it could easily result in a story that looked something like this:

 

"A local Boy Scout leader has stepped into the debate over the Ground Zero mosque by stating that 'All Muslims should rot in hell,' raising what some say are questions about religious tolerance in Scouting.

"John Smith, Scoutmaster of Troop 24 of Smithville, Calif., made the comment and others in a Facebook posting last month.

"The posts were brought to light by Joe Clark, a district commissioner for the Scouts, who said such attitudes have no place in the Scouting movement.

" 'Bigotry and hatred should be rooted out wherever they are,' Clark said. 'Scouting accepts people of all faiths.'

"A spokesman for the Greater Smithville Council of the Boy Scouts declined to comment on the controversy, saying only that local chartered organizations choose their Scouting leaders and have final say in the appointments.

"A representative of Troop 24's chartering group, the Smithville Widget Co., would not comment Tuesday.

"The Boy Scouts have been embroiled in controversy over religion in recent years ..."

 

As a member of the Fourth Estate - trust me, it could see print.