FOS

[Abel Magwitch]

I received my fos card in the mail. And as usual, the pie chart that represents the allocation of funds is broken down this way. 5% of funds are allocated for administration, 9% of funds are allocated for fund raising, and a whopping 86% of funds are allocated directly to program.

 

I am curious how council break down "program". What does program include? How do the units benefit from FOS monies being allocated to program?

 

 

Any professionals or volunteers like to comment on how program funding is broken down in your councils?

 

Abel

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, I find that pretty hard to believe. They must be allocating all of the DE salaries to program, and not fundraising. But in practice, the DEs have to spend a pretty good portion of their time on raising money.

 

As a Cub Scout leader, I hardly ever saw any benefit from being part of the council. It was hard to listen to the FOS presentation, when even as Cubmaster, I couldn't possibly see how the council was spending anywhere near $120 on each of my Cub Scouts. Really, the only time we came in contact with the council was at den leader training sessions, and those were run by volunteers. Now, I realize that there is real value to having a framework in place, and someone making sure that training sessions happen, and having someone to report any serious issues to. The DE did go to schools and give presentations that drove a bunch more Scouts our way.

 

Our troop has a little more contact. We go to camporees (all planned and staffed by volunteers). I've had a few times when I've talked with our DE on topics that couldn't have been handled from National. I'd really like to see an honest breakdown of a DE's time over a year. I would guess that fundraising is the largest chunk of time, possibly followed by time spent recruiting/starting new units.

[Abel Magwitch]

By the way Oak Tree, my council is stating on the fos card that it costs $175 to support one Scout.

 

[BrentAllen]

Does either of your councils own any camp properties? Do you ever camp there? Do they charge you?

 

Have you compared Summer Camp fees to other non-Scouting camps? Around here, they are 1/2 to 1/3 of other camps.

 

Remember, your council doesn't get anything from BSA registration fees. That money goes straight to national, and for Boy's Life. You don't pay anything to council as far as dues go. Nothing for salaries, camp properties, camp equipment, etc.

 

Just some things to think about.

[Eagle92]

Program consists of the following

 

All events: trainings, summer camp, camporees, day camps, residents,

etc. that inlcudes salaries for summer camp staff, any

entertainment, etc.

 

And as stated elsewhere, FOS donations do help keep things affordable compared to other programs. I know at $55/week $70 with late fee for CSDC we are the cheapest day camp in the county, even if it's only for a week.

 

Properties: council service center, camp(s)

 

This is probabaly the biggest chunck as it also covers electricty, water, insurance, etc.

 

Ok mind is drawing a blank on what else it covers. I'm sure others will chip in.

 

On a different but similar note, there is a professional fundraising organization that non-profit fundraiser's may join IF they meet certain criteria. One of the criteris if memory serves is that no more than 33% of the budget can be spent on fundraising and administrative work. So essentially 67% had to be spent on program. Again this is from memory, and the stats come from 12 years ago.

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Looking at this question as a former DE and current volunteer leader I think the answer really depends on the council. As a former pro I have seen minimal money put into camp maintenance, just enough to keep it functional. I have seen the council camp being sold to pay off huge council debts because of poor fiscal management. I have seen two different council SE's get up in front of a group of volunteers and state point blank that "FOS pays for the professional staff without whom the scouting program could not function." The council scout store that never seems to have anything in stock, even if you order in advance.

 

I used to give regularly and generously to FOS until I found out how much was going into salary increases for the professionals after the sale of our camp. I watched another council go under because of professional incompetence and watch those SE's get promoted to the highest ranks in professional scouting. Until I see some honesty and integrity and accountability return to professional scouting they will not receive one FOS dollar from me.

[Abel Magwitch]

In 2003,the annual report of my council actually listed employee compensaton. The figure was $1,418,354. This figure far exceeded any other council expenses.

 

The employee compensation has never again been listed on an annual report again but the program expenses have shown an increas of over a million and a half on subsequent annual reports. So the professional payroll is quietly included in the program. And that's the selling point of the fos flyer.

 

I know that at least in my council, program is handled by the volunteers.

 

I find it most deceptive four our council to include the professional payroll in the "program" part of the pie chart. The professionals are not providing program to the youth, it is the volunteers that do so.

 

My council has an abundance of professionals on the payroll to serve our council's supposed abundant youth membership. Unfortunately there are several problems - One, you rarely see the professional staff involved in any council, district or unit events and second, I have only ever seen a fraction of the youth our council supposedly has at any district or council events.

 

We do let our parents know that if they wish to contribute to Scouting, that their donation is just as tax deductable if they donate it to their son's unit. That way at least they know that their monies will be directly used in their son's Scouting experience.

[Oak Tree]

Brent,

 

Our council does own camps. The camporees happen there, but we rarely use them otherwise. The pack has camped there maybe once in five years. State parks generally provide a better experience. I realize they are subsidized too, but really, from the pack's point of view, it would be just fine if the council didn't own any property. I certainly don't see a good reason why Cub Scout parents should subsidize Boy Scout parents if it's Boy Scouts who use the camps most.

 

I'd really prefer that summer camps be self-sustaining. If we want to use donations to hand out scholarships to the less well-off, then let's say so. But why collect FOS from everyone just to give everyone a discout at summer camp time?

 

Our troop typically camps out of council for summer camp. Hopefully that camp is charging us what it costs them to run the camp for us, because they aren't getting any donations from us otherwise.

 

One of the main reasons Scout camps are cheaper is that they don't have to pay all the volunteers that show up to help run the camp. Every group of kids brings their own adults with them. Also, we sleep in tents.

 

A Scout store should be self-sufficient too, at least in our council. As long as the store is busy enough, the markup should cover the operating expenses of the store.

 

I really don't know what all the money goes for. I can guess, but I don't know.

 

[AvidSM]

My Council's pie chart looks about the same. I think all the Councils are told to maximize the program piece of the pie and stretch the truth as far as they can. Most non profits are rated by how much of their budget is spent on administration with anything over 20% considered bad.

 

I don't blame my Council for what they do to the numbers. Since I took a District position, I have become more exposed to the administrative and political end of scouting at the Council Level.

 

Depending on your attitude, you can say that Council does very little to help the program at the unit level. And, you can use this reasoning to not give or give little to FOS. I believe my Council does what it can - it's not nothing but it's certainly not 86%. And I do give my "scouts worth" to FOS, which in my Council is $165.

 

What the real pie chart looks like, we will never know.

[DeanRx]

"Does either of your councils own any camp properties? Do you ever camp there? Do they charge you?

Have you compared Summer Camp fees to other non-Scouting camps? Around here, they are 1/2 to 1/3 of other camps.

Remember, your council doesn't get anything from BSA registration fees. That money goes straight to national, and for Boy's Life. You don't pay anything to council as far as dues go. Nothing for salaries, camp properties, camp equipment, etc."

 

1) YES, we have a council camp and YES they charge us when we camp there as a unit. Granted it is much cheaper than some of the local state park camps and the ONLY place we can get shooting sports done for the boys (we pay extra for the rangemaster)

 

2) Unlike some other councils, our actually HAS made considerable improvements to the council camp in the past couple years with FOS dollars (or so says the council), so at least folks get to see some direct "bang" for the FOS bucks.

 

3) Your BSA registration goes towards Boys Life, only if you opt to subsribe to it for each youth member. It is in addition to the BSA national registration, NOT automatically included with it.

 

4) Our council doesn't get anything from our BSA registration fees, but it sure gets its 1/3 of our total popcorn sales each year. This past year, that came to about 8K on 24K total popcorn sales in a pack with roughly 50 active members. Thats $160 per boy directly contributed by our unit into the council coffer this year alone.

 

I have a very hard time convincing the families in our unit to pony up FOS dollars after such a successful popcorn sale year. Many feel they have already done enough to make both the pack and the council "go". They will happily fork over additional dollars for jr to attend day camp or resident camp, but they expect both the unit and the council to budget accordingly and operate on the funds that have already been generated. Can't say I can argue with them much on that point.

 

FOS = "fund our salaries"

[BrentAllen]

I guess my situation must be different. We have 3 council camps, Bert Adams, Woodruff and the Allatoona Aquatics Base. Units are camping at these camps all the time. The Aquatics Base has lots of canoes, sail boats and motor boats. They offer lots of classes out there, staffed mainly by volunteers. There is one Ranger at Allatoona, two at both Bert Adams and Woodruff - they all live there on property.

 

Our council runs three WB courses a year out at Bert. We have several council Cub events there each year. Summer Camp is run at both Bert and Woodruff. Cub and Webelos Encampments are offered at Bert. Cub Family Camping events are offered one weekend each summer at both Bert and Woodruff. Various training courses are offered at all 3 camps throughout the year. We don't pay anything to use the properties, unless we use the rifle range.

 

Our camps get A LOT of use!

 

Do you consider paying Ranger salaries program? What about the program center staff that record and approve Tour Permits? What about the staff that processes advancement reports? What about the staff that processes new Scout applications?

 

I haven't done the math, but figure that your unit is helping fund the following positions (salaries):

District Executive

Field Director

Council Program Director

Finance Director

Accounting staff

Scout Executive

Camp Rangers

Program Staff 3 - 5 members (see above)

Receptionist

Are there any of these you are willing to do without?

 

Think about all the expenses of just running your council volunteer service center. Gas, water, electric and phone bills. Computers, copiers, paper, phones. Maintenance. How much do you think it costs just to open the building and turn on the lights each day? Add that up, combine it with the salaries, and divide by the number of units in your council. I'm betting it is a pretty hefty number. Remember, they don't get any funding from dues. If you have a Scout that doesn't sell a single box of popcorn, look at all the services he is getting for free.

 

We have a great council and I am happy to support it with both my time and money.

[Eagle92]

I remember that FOS= Fund Our Salaries Joke.

 

I know how challenging FOS can be to sell to units, esp. in my neck of the woods with high unemployment even before the current recession.

 

But I know where the money is going, especially now. So in that aspect I am lucky, very lucky. Our SE is reinvigorating our program, and the pros are right there beside the volunteers in getting this done. Also improvements to the council camps are being implemented, and it looks as if a captial campaign will be underway to make major improvements and expansions at the camps. I must honestly say that it is a good time to be in my council.

 

Additionally I also know how much activities can cost to operate, and that some do go into the red. One reason why I am being so slow and analytical about my CSDC budget at the moment. I do not want to go into the red.

 

Yes some FOS money does go into salaries. But as a former pro I can tell you that a good DE is worth their weight in gold. I know of folks who left and doubled, or in one case tripled, their salary. I know of the huge amounts of time spent in the background, which puts tremendous stress on the family life. I don't know if it was a PDL-1 or the All Hands Conference I went to, but somewhere I heard that the divorce rate among pros was extremely high, higher than some of the more widely known professions with high divorce rate.

 

And in case you didn't already realize it, I do give what I can to FOS, and have done FOS talks.

[Abel Magwitch]

Eagle, I have to disagree with some of your earlier points:

 

trainings - are put on by volunteers. Usually held at various sponsoring institutions at no cost to council. Materials costs are covered by training fees.

 

summer camp - Scouts pay good money to go to summer camp. In my council, Scouts do not get promised program for fees paid due to the ineptness of the council.

 

camporees - and klondike derbies and other weekend events are run by volunteers. Many times these events are held off council property at local parks. There is always a participation fee which covers the event patch and possibly a light lunch.

 

day camps - same as above

 

salaries for summer camp staff - the amount paid to the summer camp staff is so small, council has trouble finding anybody to be on staff at all. (This is one of the biggest problems at our council summer camp; lack of qualified staff). Many times underage Scouts are hired to be merit badge counselors to save the council money.

 

council service center - Got a complete makeover while the council campground is left in disrepair. Scouts do not receive program at the service center. Much of the renovation costs were covered by business contributions.

 

camp - a sore spot in my council. Camp in dire need of major renovations. Preventative maintenance not done. Some cabins no longer usable. Roads washed out by creek. Lawns not cut due to broken down equipment. Very small summer camp attendance due to poor program. Majority of council troops summer camp out of council. Many areas closed at summer camp due to shortage of hired staff.

 

This is probably the biggest chunk as it also covers electricity, water, insurance, etc. - As listed on my councils annual report; this is a very small chunk as compared to professional salaries.

 

I have also made the observation through the years that FOS is already conveniently built into the scouting program in my council as the volunteer is charged a fee for almost everything. Many times services are not rendered for the fees charged.

 

The latest fos mailing came with a letter entitled "The true cost of scouting"

 

Many of the things listed on the letter are already paid for with registration fees. Other items are given freely though corporate donations. I find this mailing misleading. Its aim is obviously to make people believe that these items are costing the council money compelling them to donate to fos.

 

Volunteer and Staff Training Training for more than 1,000 volunteer leaders every year.

 

(Training costs the volunteer money. There is always a fee for a volunteer to take training. Most training is held at sponsoring institutions such as churches at no cost to the council.)

 

Insurance Coverage To protect our volunteers, staff, members and property.

 

(Insurance is covered in a scouts registration fee. Adult volunteers also pay for insurance in their registration fee.)

 

Support Staff for registration, typing publications, and program support.

 

(Units are being encouraged more and more to do things on the internet like yearly registrations, and advancement essentially doing the data entry normally done by the support staff.)

 

Reference Publications and Resources Everything from program planning kits and Program helps to camping information books

 

(Most are available at the scout shop for a fee.)

 

Camp Promotion

 

(You need to maintain the camps if you want scouts to use the camp. Scouts do not camp at the remodeled service center. The camp is in constant disrepair. Another pool due to neglect has been lost. There is one pool left, and when it goes

 

A good camp program and staff promotes the camp better than any advertising. Unfortunately, this is usually not the case. The large numbers of council troops using other council camps gives the strongest testimony to this fact.)

 

 

Administrative Needs Postage, computers and link-up to the National Computer System, copy machines, folding machines, print shop.

 

(There is no longer a print shop in my council. The print shop was one of the first things our previous Council Executive got rid of to save money, yet it is still being listed on the fos letter. Mailings could be folded and put into smaller envelopes to save postage, but many times mail is put in large, extra postage required envelopes. Many of the service center computers have been donated by big business.)

 

Camp Equipment Tents, cooking equipment, camp vehicles, building repairs, canoes, equipment replacement and repair, and upkeep of your council camps.

 

(Tents? Troops supply their own tents. As for the camp upkeep, the volunteers are always called upon, asking for free help and free supplies. At other times, the U.S. Navy Seabees, and other volunteers help maintain the camp at little or no cost. The scout office will even show volunteers paperwork that claims money has been spent on new rifles, yet it was written in an earlier council newsletter that the rifles were graciously donated. (Some pesky volunteers save their council newsletters.)

 

Recognitions For leaders who attend training, volunteer for special projects and help out in many roles throughout scouting.

 

(There are always fees for training, fees to attend recognition dinners, fees to buy the awards etc. That is why the recognition dinners cost so much, funding is needed for the awards.)

 

Professional Staff Our full-time staff who work with volunteers to organize new units, manage fundraising programs, conduct trainings, work with membership recruitment, provide counseling and advice for your district, our camps, and programs.

 

(Yet being a volunteer organization, it is the volunteers that conducts training, recruits members etc, not the professional staff.)

 

Friendly Camp Ranger To keep our beautiful camp up-to-date and ready for our scouts

 

(Friendly is a subjective term. Our Ranger has been quick to yell at a scout for wearing a hat in the dining hall. When at camp, Mr. Ranger pretty much stays away from the volunteer leaders using the camp. As for work, he does work hard. He is one of the hardest working people I have ever met. He does the best that he can with the minimal funds that are given by the executives at the nicely remodeled scout office.)

 

Service Center Utilities, insurance, repairs and care for your headquarters.

 

(The service center gets a makeover while another pool bites the dust at camp. Council has tapped into the natural resources at our council camp (logging, natural gas) yet the fees continue to rise.)

 

Charter Fees For every Scouting youth, leader, and unit.

 

(Charter fees are paid for by the membership when they join.)

 

Audio Visual Supplies Used in training camp support.

 

(Much if not all was given as a donation, without costing the Council a penny. I cannot justify the council purchasing those nice plasma TVs at the scout office. (A scout is thrifty.)

 

Postage Mailings to leaders, parents and youth Members.

 

(Cant comment much on this one. Postage is one of the necessary evils needed to run any organization, though many times, things are being done electronically. The Scout office still requires many things to be done in person by the unit leader who must come to the service center. On a side note, postage is wasted when the same piece of mail is sent to everyone in a scouting family living in the same house. If there are 4 registered scouters at the same address, they will get 4 pieces of the same mail.)

 

Council Newsletter The council's bi-monthly is published so members know what is going on in scouting.

 

(The council newsletter is being printed at no cost to the council by a local printing firm. This was one of the reasons why the print shop was closed.)

 

Council Website Go online to learn more about your council and its programs.

 

(I am sure that the site has a minimal cost to run. The site is graciously maintained by a volunteer.)

 

As I have shown above, at least in my council, the costs are already conveniently built into the program.

 

[Eagle92]

AM,

Every council does things differently. I guess the financial situation in my neck of the woods has played a major role in what my council does.

 

At our trainings, we usually have the DE, if available, or another pro at the event. Heck for my BALOO training, the SE himself came out. Also the only charge we have for most trainings is food, IOLS and BALOO may also incur a camp fee IF not at a scout camp (has happened only 1 time to my knowledge, 6 camps help). All materials to participants comes out of council budget. Theory is that the volunteers are investing time and energy into the program, they should get the support they need.

 

Also in my council, I can tell you for a fact that Summer camp does NOT take care of the camp for the entire year. If memory serves it takes care of expenses over the summer only. the other 8.5 months coems out of budget.

 

In the past the pros did a bunch of the work in creating programs liek camporee and family campouts. Heck I rememeber one time for a family campout it was 3 of us resposnible for doing all of the work. Very little assistance from volunteers. Now it's like a partnership between Pros and Vols. We are having some growing pains in this area, but overall I think we are definitely headed int he right direction.

 

Now day camp when I was a DE was completely volunter run with DEs only providing resources as needed.

 

Camp salaries are budgeted in awith the summer camp prices if memory serves.

 

As I mentioned we are fortunate in that we are in the process of revitalizing our council camps.

 

As for insurance therie is two types: accident and liability. One is covered by registration fees, the other isn't. that's why it's part of FOS, as well as part of each event. trust me the events fees don't cover it all.

 

Ok gotta get back to work so more later. However I do understand teh challenges faced, and have faced them before. I am just glad that we now have a great SE who is doign something to improve Scouting in my neck of the woods.

 

 

[CPAMom]

The figure stated at our B & G by DE was $250 per scout. Maybe I misunderstood her - could have been $215. I was hacked that the Cubmaster's wife let her come. We sold over $5K in popcorn, so our unit is a FOS. Many parents are unemployed or struggling financially.