What is the difference in'boys being boys' and hazing?

[SharonNC]

There has been a lot of discussion among parents of the troop boys about this. One reads the "Guide to safe Scouting" and it leaves pretty clear in my mind that "I'll call all my friends that are juniors and seniors and have them kill you" is a direct threat and not just a joke.

 

This happened at a community service project we were working at as a troop. The boy that was threatened by two of the senior boys, told his mother who happened to be helping, instead of the SM. The mother jumped! She called me and the boy that she preceived to have 'threatened' her son. I had to get between them. I stopped the verbal attack, went to get the child that complained of being threatened. Once he was there, it came to light that ANOTHER boy was also involved. I went to get him. Making sure that Mom was several yards away from all boys, and that the two on the spot were separated and all were in my visual range.

 

The two older boys didn't deny anything, except the threat to 'kill'. They saw it as a joke, but the younger boy and his mom saw it as a personal threat as he begins high school in a couple of weeks.

 

I took the initiative and asked the open questions that brought us to apologies and a recognition of everyone's wrong doing in the incident. Including the younger boy recogizing that he runs his mouth to much and that he was rude to tell them to "shut up" prior to the threats/joke.

 

My question, in this long diatribe, is HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arizes at a troop function/event? HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience? HOW do I teach the boys hazing is wrong--and not a joke?

 

I'm doing the whole thing at the troop meeting Monday night, so please suggest suggest suggest. I'm taking my 'Guide to Safe Scouting'--I've told the boys they are required to be there, now do I insist parents attend as well?

HELP, please!

Sharon

[acco40]

My MO is to talk to the boys (without parents). In this talk I would go over the rules & regs of G2SS and explain that if someone felt threatened, regardless of the intent, that behavior is not to be condoned. I've also found that when two physically equal boys verbally joust it usually is much more acceptable than when to physically unequal boys banter about with the same exact words.

 

Next, I would inform the parents, without the boys present, of what I did. Forced confessions, apologys, etc. serve no purpose in my book. Self initiated confessions and apologys are worth their weight in gold.

 

One thing I really really stay away from is telling the parents in any shape or form how to raise their sons. That would be really stepping on toes. I would explain to the parents about what behavior is considered "scout like" and what is not.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Eagledad]

Good Scouting Morning All

 

When a boy says no, that is when the line has been drawn. The Philmont staff was showing there frustration this year because back country staffs can nolonger require the trash being dropped off to be condenced to very small sizes. They were told that such a request was on the verge of hazing. Of course it's alway someone who has gone too far the forces such a change. Apparently some staff were intertained by tearing the small bundles appart and ordering the crews to start over.

 

 

Scouting Cheers

 

Barry

[evmori]

This is a tough one. Some kids (and adults) can take kidding better than others. I think you need to deal with this on an individual basis.

 

It's also interesting what you find out when you start asking questions & not shooting from the hip 1st.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

In regard to the parents being present -

 

1) If the parents are unaware of the problem, I feel there is no need (if not counterproductive) to get them involved immediately (unless there is an immediate concern). My advice is to investigate and take appropriate measures as the SM.

 

2) If upon investigating the matter, it becomes apparent that the situation is of a serious nature (i.e., real physical threats being made), I would make the parents aware immediately (or as soon as practical).

 

3) If the parents are already aware of the situation and you (as the SM) have not had an opportunity to investigate, I would respectfully ask the parents to stand and wait to the side (not necessarily out of earshot) as you perform your function/responsibility as the SM.

 

Here's the rub, it infuriates me when a third party (someone outside of my family) decides they know what is best for my child without consideration to me as a parent. That is to say, I expect leaders to be forthright with me and to treat me as a reasonable adult (until I prove otherwise). I don't think leaders should assume that parents will overreact or act inappropriately simply because their child is involved. I realize the potential always exist. Nevertheless, leaders should not treat parents as hair-trigger "time bombs" that need to be defused. If a parent does overreact, then deal with it through the troop committee. Otherwise, treat the parent, as you would want to be treated - pretend it was your child that was threatened or accused of making a threat. If I'm the parent, I would respect the SM and allow him to do his job (let him investigate and address the issue within the confines of the Scouting venue) - BUT, due to the serious nature of the accusation, I'd also want to hear the stories from the boys directly, not third hand or filtered by someone else. The SM has the right to treat the matter as seriously or as lightly as he feels the situation warrants. However, as a parent, I should be privy to these conversations so I that I may pursue the matter elsewhere if I feel the situation warrants such action.

 

The Golden Rule should be taught to the boys, but the rule should apply to parents and leaders as well.

 

[NJCubScouter]

This thread is going to send my anxiety level through the roof, by no fault of the other posters. My son is at Boy Scout camp this week for the first time, this is his first camping trip without me, and he is one of only two first-year Scouts in the troop. He was given the means to call us if he needed to, and there have been no calls, so I suspect that when I pick him up tomorrow morning I will find that everything was fine, or at least reasonably ok. (His mother and I are not completely fine, we have missed him a lot, she was crying the other night. We are not really worried about any physical danger, I know he is in good hands with the adult leaders who are there. For me, it is more that I just want to know that he is having a good time, doing advancements, learning to swim (that could be a whole other thread), and that he will want to continue in Scouting.)

 

Which is where hazing comes in. That is one thing that I know would drive my son out of Scouting. Or more to the point, if my son had to experience the kind of "initiation" that I did when I was a Scout (in 2 different troops), I am sure he would be out. He has no real tolerance even for teasing, which he has to work on, but the kinds of physical near-abuse and invasions of privacy that hopefully are a thing of the past, would be intolerable to him. That would be the breaking point. That's just one of my worries, that when I pick him up tomorrow, to learn that he has had some experience like that, that ruined the whole thing.

 

Am I worrying too much? Yeah. But hey, it's my first time from this side of the parental equation. I'm sure we're more "homesick" for him than he is for us.

[Rooster7]

To answer your questions more directly -

 

HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arises at a troop function/event?

 

I dont think training is needed heresimply an explanation. Just treat the parents with respect, not as if theyre disinterested outsiders or a group of untrained parents that cant be trusted. Calmly explain to them your role as the SM and why things are done a certain way, but also reassure them that you respect them as parents and will keep them informed of any serious issues.

 

HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience?

 

Good luck on that one. If I knew the answer, Id be able solve a lot more problems than just the ones we have in Scouting. Do your best. If after a concerted effort a boy fails to respond, consider what if anything is being sacrificed in order to make this boy see the light. If youre sacrificing other boys (their ability to enjoy and learn from the program) then you may want to ask the troop (committee, COR, etc.) to consider revoking his membership in the troop.

 

HOW do I teach the boys hazing is wrong--and not a joke?

 

Again, I dont think its a matter of teaching and training, as much as it is keeping the boys sensitive to the idea that they will be held accountable. Making boys think before they act. As acco40 and Ed Mori pointed out, each situation should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. But, once it is apparent that a boy is being maliciously harassed, I dont think the perpetrator can claim, I didnt know it was wrong. With a few rare exceptions, Id bet every boy in this country over the age of eight knows what its like to be bullied (physically and mentally). They may not know that the BSA calls it harassment, but Id bet my house - they already know that its wrong. In short, Id simply advise the boys that its not going to be tolerated and if there is conclusive evidence that a boy is guilty of this bad behavior, the boy should be prepared for serious consequences, including the possibility of being kicked out of the troop.

 

[Eagledad]

>>My question, in this long diatribe, is HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arises at a troop function/event? HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience? HOW do I teach the boys hazing is wrong--and not a joke?

[Fat Old Guy]

"When a boy says no, that is when the line has been drawn."

 

A line has been drawn but what type of line. When a Scout is told to police the area around his tent and says, "No" is that the same as when a Scout is told to like the SPL's boots and says, "No"?

 

 

[evmori]

Fat Old Guy,

I would have to say no.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

>>When a Scout is told to police the area around his tent and says, "No" is that the same as when a Scout is told to like the SPL's boots and says, "No"?

[bt01]

I would talk to the two boys and tell them what they did was wrong. I hate to say it but "we" are in a differnt world today. What we might thing is a joke the other person might not.

 

 

When it comes to joking around(for me), there is a small group that I do it with. Because we know each other and our friendship is older than dirt.

 

When it comes to hazing, no one is going to agree on it. The line on hazing that I use is: Will I do this to myself.

 

BT

[Bob White]

"HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arizes at a troop function/event?"

 

I think the next way is by having the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters demonstrate that he will take care of it.

 

Where were they when this incident happened? how is it that a parent and a committee member knew what was going on but the SM and ASMs did not?

 

The only way to gain the trust of the parents is for the adult leaders to demonstate their leadership skills and management of the program.

 

"HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience?"

First how about teaching the boys the "Platinum Rule".

 

The Golden Rule says treat others as you want to be treated. The Platinum Rule says "treat others as they want to be treated". Just because you don't mind being teased or insulted doesn't mean you should tease and insult others.

 

Next a good way to teach scouts about not teasing or harrassing is through program elements like scoutmaster minutes, scoutmaster conferences, Boards of Reviews, reflections, religious observations, Patrol Leader Council meetings, counseling, Patrol recognitions, the Scout Oath and Law. It is an ongoing lesson.

 

EagleDad please don't misunbderstand this I mean no personal assault or insult, just something to think about. It's always a good idea to have at least 4 leaders on a campout. Mainly so that if two adults need to leave camp (one gets hurt and one transports)you still have two adults with the troop.

 

Another good reason is that if you get upset and you don't want to say anything in haste, then you get a buddy and you take the hike. Calm down, return to the situation and handle it in the way you need to.

 

I'm am concerned by the number of posts talking about what to do when you tell a scout to do something and they say 'no'. Why is anyone "telling" a boy what to do? Why are we not "asking questions".

 

The SM walks around the site and asks the SPL how things look and what could be done better. The SPL points out the litter around the tent and says that should probably be picke up. The SM says "thats a good point, who should you talk to about that?" the SPL say "I should talk to joe, he's the Ptrol Leader. The SM says "I think that would be a good way to do it.

 

The SPL goes to Joe and asks "how do you think your patrol is doing and what what could they do better" as they walk over to the littered area. Joe's "I guess we should get that garbage picked up" The SPL says "that's a good idea, your doing a great job as PL who should you ask about picking up the litter?" Joe says I'll tell Fred and Mike it's their tent". The SPL says "think about it, did I tell you what to do or did I ask what needs to be done and let you decide?" Joe says "you asked". SPL says "how about bringing Fred and Mike over and asking them what they think they could do better and let them say they need to pick up the litter?" Joe says "I'll try that." Spl says "let me know when the job gets done, your doing great."

 

The SM trains the SPL, the SPL trains the PL, the Pl trains the scouts in his patrol. Scouting it's a wonderful thing.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SharonNC]

Thank you, thank you! Each of you made very good points. I'll further explain just a little of what's happening in our troop.

 

I have been the CC for 3 years. Our former SM left due to job change and a new one took over. The former SM had a 'if I don't do it myself, it won't happen' attitude and way of running the troop. He left at the end of my first year. Then his chief ASM took over, he continued the status quo, while complaining that I needed to "find" a SM because he couldn't do it all. We lost more boys.

 

Finally another of the ASM's went to SM Fundamentals and he traded places with the current SM. {Confused yet? Imagine the chagrin of he boys!}

 

Then in Sept. our current SM went to Iraq. He has a more laid back, quiet control, than the former SM had. But he will allow more 'boys will be boys' than I do. I stepped in as acting SM and turned the committee over to our existing committee members.

 

NOW the fun began, because I started the process of a BOY LED troop. They are working with their SPL, PL, and APL. It's been a shock to their systems, but they are loving it. I actually took 13 of the 19 boys on our roll to summer camp and got to sit in my chair and hear all about who was cleaning their tent and who was not. There were no fights, no arguments, and minimal teasing. It was great! As a first time of taking a troop, it was the best of the best.

 

You're current now, except for the situation that came up last night. I was there, still as the SM, the ASM that was to assist didn't show up. The mom that stayed is a member of committee and was my 2nd, until another committee person could get there and she could go to school.

 

The mom that got upset and threatened the offending boy IS trained. I just had to step between them and give them both time to take a breath and defuse the situation of the moment.

 

I gave each boy an opportunity to hear the other's story without interruption, in front of the offended mom, including her son. I lead with questions that brought out honest answers, including her son's actual aggravation of the situation.

 

I did not force the apologies, I did ask how they would like the same treatment. I did ask how they thought it should be resolved. They came forth with the apologies to one another and the mom apologized to the child she threatened.

 

I did inform the boys we'll be having a forced discussion on Monday at the meeting (my last as acting SM, he's back and will be home from leave on the 31st and taking back over) They will lead the discussion, the training, and they will agree on what the consequences will be if we have a future incident.

 

I appreciate the fact that the SM and ASM's set the tone. The parents of all the boys in the troop have told me what a wonderful thing has happened in that the boys are now running the troop, teaching one another, and they don't have to worry about their child being hurt anymore. I also can appreciate that mother wanting to protect her child! The thing that could have resulted from her loss of temper though is that I could have been bailing her out of jail. That I refuse to allow, if I can help it.

 

I really think that once the boys have had time to think about their actions and have time to reflect with one another what is appropriate (and not so) behavior, we'll have no more of this type of issue.

 

I sat with each one after a time, in a full dining room full view of 50 other people and we quietly discussed the way they feel when older or bigger people take over their space and make fun of them. All but 2 of the boys are basically sound but impetutous boys. They have the typical "know it all attitude" sometimes and sometimes they are very like sponges, absorbing all the good will they can.

 

I pray they have a willing heart to hear the Golden Rule. We've come a long way in a short time, already, I no longer have to council with disruptive boys every meeting. That's a major sign to me that "Boy Led" is best.

 

Thanks again, and please continue to suggest.

 

I do use SM minutes, every meeting, the parents that are there get as much from them as the boys do.

Sharon

 

 

[SharonNC]

Hi to NJCubScouter,

Don't worry, when you pick him up tomorrow he's going to be so tired it will be like pulling hen's teeth to get information. Our boys didn't stop talking all the way home from camp, but the minute they got in their own parents cars they were asleep within minutes.

 

I can't swear to every troop, but our guy's really worked together and helped one another out at camp. We had 4 boys that had never been to that particular camp, so they split up set up jobs of setting up our campsite and then they split into teams to take the new guys on the grand tour of shortcuts to class areas.

 

I hope your son tells you he had a wonderful time and learned a lot. I suggest every adult go one time, at least. Our SPL was very good at helping the younger ones out, showing them easier or safer ways of doing things. The campsite took on a real family/home feeling before Monday night.

 

That's a good feeling for this leader, anyway!