Health & Safety and Training Questions - Get the right info

[MileHighScouter]

Shortridge wrote: "Sorry, but you searched for the wrong word. The modern term is "hand ax," not "hatchet." That term IS included in the G2SS (p. viii, in the age-appropriate activities chart). And the BSA STILL sells hand axes today - two types, in fact."

 

 

You were right. I tripled checked. In the older version, the two items were on the same line. Now they are different entries.

 

Go figure.

 

However, I can't say I'd change anything I said. Although my trial example might give the SM a chance at winning.

 

What I don't get is how the GSS can list it in the chart, but ignore it in all text. Not to mention the failure to list it anywhere in any of the other docs I mentioned.

 

Oh well, again sometimes it seems not to make sense.

 

jim

 

[SSScout]

Knife and axe and saw use are certainly touchy subjects. When I was first asked to teach "Woodtools" at OLS,I looked up all I could in the "official" literature, and went on the web, and talked to some other folks that I respected. I also thought long about my history as a Scout and my dad who worked as a timber cruiser and at a saw mill. I found that alot of the "safe" technique was not 'codified' and was more 'tradition'. The GSS and its language has been mentioned already. Concerning knife and axe and saw, there is very little instruction in the present Scout handbook and none in the present Fieldbook. Go to earlier Handbooks, you'll find several pages detailing good, safe technique. My Fieldbook from the mid sixties, has nine pages of instruction with photos of Scouts using knife and axe. How to cut down a 12" tree?

 

(from the Fieldbook pg.158) " First Class SCOUTCRAFT Requirement No.3a

a. Camp Making - Sharpen an axe and use it for cutting light wood into tent pegs."

""Interpretation:: Sharpen axe (hand axe) with file and stone (pg.159). Tent pegs should be about 8" long, pointed at one end, with a notch approximately one inch from the other end."

 

I have to say that the axe and knife skills I picked up came as much from the books by Eric Sloane ("Diary of an Early American Boy")and his recounting of the use of antique hand tools as I got from my Scout leaders and my father. Then, too, in my previous life, I sometimes think I must have been a lumberjack....

 

The class I put together included showing and demonstrating several types of hand axes, felling axes, a double bit axe, an axe with broken handle, a two man crosscut saw, a Sven folding saw, a bow saw, wedges and sledge, a wedgemaul, several types of pocket knives, lock backs and 'clasp', kitchen knives, a 'rescue knife' (skindiving), and a wood 'practice' knife. Files, Carborundum oil stone, Arkansas dry stone, diamond hone, "sursharp" tool, a ceramic steel. The hand out was 8 pages, reprints from some websites and official BSA stuff.

 

I found myself not only showing how to use the tools correctly and safely, but also talking about BSA's limitations as to ""official"" practice. Tote'n Chip? Whittlin' Chip? How to instruct? how to test? All tradition. Make a tent peg. How to pass the tool safely, carry it safely, etc. Will it PREVENT accidents? No, only make them LESS likely, as I showed the scar on my left finger from my Scout days.

Once upon a time, my bosses in the Bus Transit Service removed all trash cans from our busses. Why? because they tended to attract trash. (goal: keep the busses clean).

I feel it is by the same reasoning, there is very little or no mention of axe use in our Scout Handbook or Fieldbook. Telling Scouts how to use an axe in the Handbook tends to encourage their use.

 

When I teach a Scout (Cub or Boy or Adult),personally, how to use a sharp tool, I feel I am passing on a skilled tradition, much like a Master-Apprentice relationship. When the recipient of my training goes forth and uses that skill, or, better yet, teaches another in the arcane use of this obsolete tool, it is the passing of a tradition. Yep, it might sometime save a finger that might otherwise be injured. Or a life. I sometimes think about how my dad or that long aged Patrol Leader taught me. Maybe that Whttlin' Chip Cub will remember learning to fold the knife with an open hand (won't find that in ANY BSA publication) and think of an old fuzzy faced Scouter. And then further on he will teach another son. And another finger will be saved.

 

Oh well..."Respect the edge", ya'll.

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

MileHigh writes: "Well, if they are not mentioned in the training syllabus for ITOLS (Boy Scout Outdoor Ldr Tng), not in the Tot'n Chip, not anywhere in the BSA handbook, and not in the GSS, my position as a trainer was that they are not authorized for use in our units."

 

So, does your position qualify as a "myth" or "unwritten rule" or "other?"

[shortridge]

So squirtguns and water balloons, which also aren't mentioned in any handbook, guide or syllabus I've ever read, are also unauthorized, by that line of thinking. Better recommend to your Cub camp folks that they halt any plans for a water carnival this summer.

 

That's clearly a tongue-in-cheek response to MileHigh's argument about hand axes. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Hal_Crawford]

Hold the phone Shortridge. Do those cubs point their squirt guns at each other?

 

Section IX-Unauthorized Activities: "Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized". Those squirt guns could be construed as simulated firearms.

 

To paraphrase Capt. Renault, I'm shocked, shocked to hear that cubs play with squirt guns.

 

Hal

[gcnphkr]

Hand axes are simply a subset of all axes. The only difference in the use of a hand axe and any other axe is the number of hands you use to hold it and the way it is swung. If you are teaching how to properly use an axe it will include the proper use of the hand axe.

 

For most uses in a scout environment the hand axe is more likely the proper and safer tool to use. The scouts are using it to make kindling or a quick stake. There are very few occasions that a scout needs a full length axe. In general they are not felling or limbing trees. But if you ban hand axes, the scout will use a full axe when he should have used a hatchet. The scout will be much less safe as a result.

[Stosh]

Personally I carry a hand axe and sheath knife most of the time on scout outings, or at least have it handy on my pack. 3 times in the past 40 years of working with youth, I have had the occasion to save a life with one or the other. Youth trapped in a canoe rope in white-water was the #1 reason. A knife-sharp hand axe is vital.

 

Occasionally a boy will want to be trained to use these tools and I will teach them their proper usage. I've never had a problem with any boys misusing them. Their final test for the use of a hand axe is to sharpen a pencil and then split in two.

 

When it comes to fire building I know of nothing quicker to make tinder and shavings than an overly sharp hand axe. It also does a quick job of stripping off the outside of wet wood to get to the dry stuff underneath. The sheath knife is my knife of preference because I never have to worry about it folding up on my fingers, it has a sturdy blade that doubles as a trenching tool and is readily available at the hip, same for the hand axe. I have two axe/knife sheaths, one older and heavier with leather sheath and a newer lightweight with nylon sheath. The newer one requires more effort on the part of the user because it's weight is not condusive to a heavier blow.

 

None of my boys carry the combination, but frequently ask to use mine for a specific task. If they've been trained properly, I see no problem with them using it.

 

I do not use a three-quarter or full axe, but prefer a buck saw that will do the job just as well, and safer. But for fine work, the sheath and hatchet are the best.

 

And yes, both the sheath knife and hand axe are official BSA equipment. They've been around for many years because they are of excellent quality and weight.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Narraticong]

The fact that many of these skills are not properly explained in current BSA publications shows why it's a good idea to keep pre-1972 editions on hand! As always WWGBBD? Yes, Bill Hillcourt is my Scouting hero!

 

Last week we had a Totin' Chip class for our entire troop. One of our Scouts is really a master presenter of this material. Full size axes and hand axes were discussed. It was taught that most times you could likely save energy by picking fire wood off the ground rather than cutting down trees or cutting up huge logs.

 

But we also remember that Scouting should be fun. And as long as axes are legally sold, Scouts will want to use one. But they were taught the time and place for these tools.

 

The word tool is interchangeable when discussing knives, axes, and saws. Use the right tool for the job. You wouldn't use a sledgehammer to hang a picture on your wall, so why use a double bitted axe to make tent pegs?

 

Our troop meets in a church. Some boys questioned whether they could bring a knife into church. All I asked was whether their knife was intended to be used as a tool or a weapon. They are sharp boys and caught on quickly.

 

I think the purpose of the GSS should be to help Scouters accomplish the mission of Scouting in a safe manner. But your vision of safe and mine may be different. Your level of expertise and mine may be different. That is why they are guidlines. In most cases they are not hard and fast "rules".

 

Accidents in life are going to happen. We can prevent more by having our Scouts get together once a month and watch a movie about the outdoors, or maybe read a book. They would all quickly be obese , bored young lumps with no sense of purpose in life. But they would be safe. Or maybe we could take them for a hike, but only on the paved paths at the local park...as long as they don't go near the possibly rabid squirrels. Now there's some High Adventure for you!

 

Or we can teach them outdoor skills properly, with respect for their tools, nature, and fellow Scouts. Yes, I also have a scar on my leg from a long ago knife accident. But I wouldn't trade the experience for all the video games in the world!

 

 

[NealOnWheels]

Ok, lets try your story with another object not discussed in any Scouting literature... KAZOOS.

 

Q: So Mr. Scoutmaster, you had a KAZOO in the scout trailer and you let the scouts use it whenever they like?

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: And on the day in question, Johnny SAT BY THE CAMPFIRE and PLAYED THE KAZOO and CHOKED ON IT WHEN ANOTHER SCOUT RAN INTO HIM.

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that trained you to train boy scouts to use a KAZOO?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that trained you to train boy scouts to use a KAZOO?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that said that it was policy of the BSA to let boys USE KAZOOS?

 

A: No.

 

Q: But you went ahead and let your scouts play with KAZOOS?

 

A: They weren't playing, they were using them!

 

Q: Ok, so can you point to a single document, anywhere in Scouting that says its ok for boy scouts to use KAZOOS?

 

A: No.

 

Q: So, Mr. Scoutmaster, do you have any explanation at all for the jury about why you let your boys play with KAZOOS?

 

A: Yes, the BSA still sells them (are these in the Scout catalog?).

 

Q: So, Mr. Scoutmaster, your testimony is so long as someone sells a product legally, its suitable for boys to use on campouts?

 

A: Well, yes.

 

[AnniePoo]

I'm fat. Is that bad?

[mmhardy]

 

What's the point of this thread?

 

To Push buttons?

 

Wake me up when something useful occurs.

 

ZZZzzzz

[MileHighScouter]

mmHardy wrote: "What's the point of this thread? To Push buttons?"

 

Well, I thought it might be an opportunity for leaders working with scouts to exchange information and questions about health, safety and training. After the tone of the comments became abusive and belittling, I checked out other places on this website. There is an admin section, with nothing but messages about newbies who leave because of the refusal to engage in meaningful dialogue are receive only crap. So, I don't have any idea what the point is. Apparently, its to make fun of folks for trying.

[Eagle92]

Not trying to pick on anyone, but part of the problem as I see it is that people are trying to express their opinions as fact. Then when court dramas appear, that does sound belittling to those expressing a contrary opinion. And the argumentum ad absurdum in reference to water baloons (the watergun argument can be seen as a technical violation of G2SS since it IS a simulated firearm, but that is an argument for another thread. By logic if a toy lasertag pistol cannot be used, neither can a waterpistol.) also add to the fray.

 

Now I admit I don't have the current handbook, I have my GBB that I grew up with and the 2nd ed. field book. both have good sections on wood tools on them. got to look at the current 4th ed. fieldbook.

 

Me personally I think we are doing a diservice to the Scouts and Venturers if we do not teach them how to properly use all wood tools. I know that as recenly as 5 months ago, I had to use a hatchet to get some dry wood for an OA function, and another time I had to use a throwing tomahawk from an OA fellowship event for firewood purposes .

[MileHighScouter]

Eagle 92, if I came across as preachy, its not intended. My problem with hatchets is that if BSA isn't willing to tell me how to teach it, then I'm not sure I should be trying to do it -- especially with something as dangerous as a hatchet. But I also see the point of teaching all tools. That has its merits. Conservatism is a virtue in my business.

 

Tomahawks aren't hatchets! They are made and intended to be thrown and therefore aren't woods tools. GSS

 

One person mentioned being OVERWEIGHT. I'm not sure how many folks know it, but the BSA NATIONAL NEW HEALTH FORMS have been published, the website is http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf

 

This form is to be required annually (I think) and contains the height-weight limits that have been in the Philmont and Sea Base forms now. The height weight limits now apply to all events: (1) over 72 hours; or (2) med attention is no available within 30 minutes; or (3) strenuous activity such as service projects or work weekends constitute the event. :0

 

I think that BSA is really trying to force us overweight leaders to get in shape or quit working with units. I guess that's probably good but I hate the prohibition part of their approach. Although about 5 years ago a leader dropped dead on a trail at our summer camp with my guys following right behind, they probably didn't need that.

 

I would expect to see blood pressure cuffs and scales at summer camp soon, just like at Philmont.

[Hal_Crawford]

I hope no one took me seriously about squirt guns in the hands of cubs. To me it is an example of going over the top with the G2SS. I had hoped that the reference to Capt. Renault from Casablanca ("I am shocked, shocked that there is gambling...") would keep it in perspective.

 

Mile High, if you feel I have ridiculed you it was not intentional and I apologize. I hope that we can bury the... hand ax?

 

YIS,

Hal